superman ?

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  • #38454
    SadGeezer
    Keymaster

    What do you think? Does superman qualify as Sci-Fi? At first i though, “**** NO”. but then when i think of it. Superman is sci-fi. Smallville for example is based around an alien boy and lots of meteor fragments. Does that really qualify as sci-fi or is it not enough?
    That’s really screwing me up!

    #61997
    Anonymous
    Guest

    i would say, yes definitely. Superman comes from another planet. even in “Smallville” he has the ability to see through things, super fast speed, super strength, and of course the being impervious to bullets, knives, cars and farm implements. and last i checked no human being from Earth can do anything like that.

    #61998
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Superman has never really struck me as Sci-fi, i guess most people see Sci-fi involving space, I would say Superman lies in the realm of fantasy more than Sci-Fi.
    Obviously Sci-fi being an abreviation of science fiction means that ol’ Sup doesn’t quite make the grade.
    Superman belongs in the Batman and Spiderman world as they are probably not conceivable by the use of science.
    But then X-men has a little plausibilty in it’s background of genetic changes, not that we would possibly see people with lasers coming out of their eyes, or the ability to control the elements, but Wolverines ability to regenerate and heal might be something of the future.
    Just recently a prof in the UK has had a small chip inserted into him, he is paralysed and is hoping that small electric shocks with the aid of the chip will kickstart his nervous system, enabling him to regain feeling, they claimed he is a Bionic man, personally I think he has a long way to go before he could be classed as that.
    The surgeons who operated on him (coincidently from my home town of Oxford) also think it might open up other avenues, and the prof thinks that he may even get X-ray vision (might be a bit mad!!!), but then it could be possible.
    But Superman sci-fi? has an element too it, but is more fantasy than anything else.
    Squishy

    #61999
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Squishy:
    Superman has never really struck me as Sci-fi, i guess most people see Sci-fi involving space, I would say Superman lies in the realm of fantasy more than Sci-Fi.
    Obviously Sci-fi being an abreviation of science fiction means that ol’ Sup doesn’t quite make the grade.


    I disagree. Fantasy, to me anyway, involves the use of magic/supernatural elements, whereas Sci-Fi deals more in, well, science. Superman (Clark Kent/Kal-El) is from another planet, his abilities are caused by effects that Earth’s sun and gravity have on his body, etc. Most of the foes he faces are either scientifically-inclined madmen (Lex Luthor, for example) or alien (Brainiac, another example). Aliens, technology, these things are part of the language of sci-fi. As for the other examples you mentioned, Spider-Man’s abilities are caused by science gone awry (as are those of his foes), and Batman is a normal human who has managed to train and condition his body extremely well, and who has a number of science/tech-based accessories (and, again, most of his foes are rooted in the realm of science and technology). There are a number of more “fantasy”-based superheroes (mystically-rooted figures such as Diana/Wonder Woman, Tigra of the Avengers, Doctor Strange, etc.), and their paths do cross with those of the more science/technology-based figures occasionally, which means that the universe in which they exist can be seen as a blend of sci-fi and fantasy genres, but the examples mentioned are, I think, more definitely rooted in the sci-fi world.

    –Aleck

    #62000
    Anonymous
    Guest

    As you can see it’s a hard to place Superman. It all just depends on your defention of Sci-Fi, The name Science Fiction is very vague and most fictional stories could fall under the category. From the lovely nav bar to the left it seems Sadgeezer classes Sci-Fi as being based in space. Kal-El is an alien and so fits into Sci-Fi nicely but it isn’t really sci-fi because it’s based in normal society where he flies around saving the world from mad men. Superman doesn’t contain many aliens(although occasionaly a bunch will show up) which brings it down to more of a fictional story rather than full sci-fi. I can’t see however, how Batman classes there, he’s a guy fighting crime in a suit. You have to be very loosely using the phrase sci-fi to class the dark night in it.
    The thing that throws me the most is, can something be REAL sci-fi and be based in todays society, no space and no future?

    #62001
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I don’t know Aleck, Fantasy as you say can be described as having a supernatural/magic aspect to it, but I would describe it as what your mind can come up with, meaning that fantasy is a dreamt up scenario that could never possibly happen like Peter Pan for instance.
    But science could never allow the situation where a man has a body stronger than steel and can fly and i’ve never heard the top comic book characters described as Sci-fi.
    I think if you asked your average Joe what best explains Sci-Fi then most would answer with Star Wars or Star Trek.
    Yes Batman and Spiderman are somewhat conceivable, but I think ol Stan Lee never took into account science when writing comics, more a case he was opening up his imagination to entertain.
    Science fiction has never been to far way from science fact, we are all beginning to realise that some things are possible, but I doubt that a alien who looks like a man and is superpowered by our sun is credible.
    Most scientists won’t discount the possiblitys that space ships seen in Star Trek or Star Wars could be attained, I somehow doubt they would agree that the premises laid out by superhero comic books could be a reality.
    Science has no place at least with Superman himself, true his nemesis would have some scientific attributes that could be classed as Sci-Fi, but the extreme nature that comic books go to have no standing in science, in our understanding our science today, the likes of Superman are beyond anything, nothing in science could point to it ever happening.
    So I think it is fantasy, it is the ultimate fantasy, many of the fans of Superman, Spiderman and the Hulk are attune to the characters because it is fantastical, they want their heroes to be something that no one else can be, if they were mere mortals, then it just wouldn’t have the same appeal.
    Squishy

    #62002
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    I wish I could post a picture like I frequently do with posts, but I’m sure I can’t find it on the internet. Anyway…

    The first panel of the first Superman comic book (Action Comics #1, I believe) depicts a Buck Rogers-type rocket flying through space, away from a planet that is exploding. That’s sci-fi, for certain.

    #62003
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Superman has some serious sci-fi in it but isn’t total sci-fi. Supermans first outing on Action comics#1 didn’t have any rockets although it did feature heavily on many other covers.

    What a beautiful image of Superman (who was evil at the time!)

    [ 25-03-2002: Message edited by: Godzilla ]

    {had to change the size of the image as it was making the page width too large}

    [ 26-03-2002: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]

    #62004
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Squishy:
    I don’t know Aleck, Fantasy as you say can be described as having a supernatural/magic aspect to it, but I would describe it as what your mind can come up with, meaning that fantasy is a dreamt up scenario that could never possibly happen like Peter Pan for instance.
    But science could never allow the situation where a man has a body stronger than steel and can fly and i’ve never heard the top comic book characters described as Sci-fi.


    Well, if it’s a matter of what could conceivably happen, then a *lot* of science fiction could be eliminated. For instance, a meteor shower could never cause blindness in the world’s population and cause the growth of mobile and homicidal plant life, but that’s exactly what happens in The Day of the Triffids. Radioactive fallout could never cause a man to progressively shrink in size, but that’s exactly what happens in Richard Matheson’s The Incredible Shrinking Man. A matter transporter could never swap the heads and limbs of a man and a fly (conveniently shrinking or expanding the anatomical bits to be proportionally correct), yet this is what happens in The Fly. All of these are set on Earth, in “present” time (or at least contemporary to the times in which they were written), are just about as outlandish as far as scenarios are concerned as any of the superhero titles mentioned, yet they’re all considered science fiction.

    quote

    Yes Batman and Spiderman are somewhat conceivable, but I think ol Stan Lee never took into account science when writing comics, more a case he was opening up his imagination to entertain.

    …And the same thing could be said about H.G. Wells, or Ray Bradbury, etc.

    quote:


    I doubt that a alien who looks like a man and is superpowered by our sun is credible.
    Most scientists won’t discount the possiblitys that space ships seen in Star Trek or Star Wars could be attained, I somehow doubt they would agree that the premises laid out by superhero comic books could be a reality.
    Science has no place at least with Superman himself, true his nemesis would have some scientific attributes that could be classed as Sci-Fi, but the extreme nature that comic books go to have no standing in science, in our understanding our science today, the likes of Superman are beyond anything, nothing in science could point to it ever happening.


    Well, a man who drinks a potion that makes him invisible is essentially scientifically impossible, but that was an idea concocted by sci-fi author H.G. Wells for his sci-fi novel The Invisible Man, which has been the foundation for a number of films that could be (and are) called sci-fi, up to and including Paul Verhoeven’s Hollow Man.

    I think that what’s happening is that we’re looking at a distinct division between “hard” science fiction and “soft” science fiction. “Hard” sci-fi is something based on established scientific principles and is concerned with technical accuracy as much as plotting (such as some of Heinlein’s work), whereas “soft” sci-fi is more fanciful, and while it may have a “scientific” basis, the science itself can be pretty half-baked and serves only as something to get the plot started and is completely subservient to, and dictated by, the plot at hand (lots of Bradbury’s work, Star Wars, Philip K. Dick’s novels, etc.). LEXX falls into the latter category, not being constrained by any “real” science, and plays around with accuracy like it doesn’t matter (and, in the context of the program, it doesn’t). Lots of “soft” sci-fi would be classified as “fantasy” if you just replaced “space ship” with “translocation spell.” Science is only a contrivance to set the story in motion, and not the focus. This, I think, is where Superman falls. Its science is dubious, but it’s no more dubious than the kind of science that allows a several-hundred-foot-tall lizard to destroy Tokyo and breathe fire, or allows a woman to be programmed as a love slave and end up half-cluster lizard.

    –Aleck

    #62005
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Good points Aleck.

    It’s hard to define Superman because it depends on the perspective. If you look at it from a human POV then Superman most definitly qualifies as Fantasy. Its about a starman that comes to Earth and becomes a superhero incognito masquerading as a Earthling.

    In my personal opinion only; Sci-Fi is only fiction that deals with Earth-based Science and has *some* basis in fact. Literature and other forms of media that deal with other worldly creatures come to Earth with their own Sciences is more or less Fantasy. There’s little difference between a Wizard and Superman. Both have no factual basis of their power. Whereas something like Babylon5 or StarTrek deal exclusively with the advancement of Earth based science and physics.

    Both are fiction, but Sci-Fi deals with science/physics extrapolating vs fantasm.

    All that said however Superman isnt just about Superman, since the beginning they have evolved into Science-Fiction from the fact that baddys and goodys alike now seem to all have phasers and magical abilities.

    So when it comes down to it I guess that perhaps comicbook-fiction like Superman and X-men really need their own catagory as hybrids of Fantasy and Sci-Fi.

    Just my 2 cents.

    #62006
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by Godzilla:
    Superman has some serious sci-fi in it but isn’t total sci-fi. Supermans first outing on Action comics#1 didn’t have any rockets although it did feature heavily on many other covers.


    NO.

    I wasn’t talking about the cover of the comic book at all. That image is easy to find on the internet. I’m talking about the first illustrated panel on the first page of the first superman story. NOT THE COVER. I used to have a re-print copy of that issue. There was an illustration of a Kal-El’s rocketship escaping the dying planet Krypton. I could be wrong about the location of the panel, but it was in that book.

    I suppose you’ll make me go dig out that reprint, scan it, and post here?

    #62007
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Flamegrape:

    I suppose you’ll make me go dig out that reprint, scan it, and post here?


    Yes That’d be cool actually, never seen it.

    #62008
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by LexxLurker:

    Yes That’d be cool actually, never seen it.


    You’ll have to wait several days. I’ll have to dig it out of my rented storage locker.

    #62009
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hehe, if it’s too much trouble dont Id know Id be way too lazy to personally, especially if its in a storage locker, Ill catch it another time

    #62010
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The pannel you’re refferring to is the one of Kal El rocketing from the doomed planet Krypton (See Pic). I’m sorry, i thought you were talking about the cover illistration. Nifty page isn’t it. Superman is THE superhero.

    Anyhow. As said before, Sci-Fi is classed as spacey shows featuring the human race with technology at least vaguely plausable by todays science. That’s kind of what peeps have been saying but we all class “Stargate SG1” as a sci-fi show, that’s all about aliens based in the present day, these are the same features possessed by the superman story and yet it’s being argued as fantasy. Doesn’t that make Sup a sci-fi story?

    [ 26-03-2002: Message edited by: Godzilla ]

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