insect wars;light zone vs dark zone, II
Kai wrote:
quote:
Hate to put a dampener on the lively dabate but here is why the insect wars must have been in BOTH universes.
The giga-shaddow can not cross borders as you recall when it did it collapsed the portal!
Actually, that would be a reason why the Wars could only take place in the Light Universe.
But the Giga Shadow collapsed the Fractal Core because it was simply to big to fit through it. My theory is, the Giga Shadow is much larger than a normal Insect. It’s been slowing growing in size and strength for many thousands of years. The average Insect during the Insect Wars may have been able to fit through the Fractal Core. In fact, I believe the Insects created the Fractal Core.
Cat wrote:
quote[quote] 10,000 years from Brigadoom.. who says that is literal? I’d think it more like a couple of thousand.. who would keep count that long, especially as they could barely remember their names (compare with Matthew 18 where Peter asks Jesus how if you should forgive a man 7 times, and Jesus says no, 70 times 7. It doesn’t mean 490 literally) [/quote]
That is a good point, and I had wondered about that. Let’s look at the two individual quotes. First, from “Dull, Dull, Dull”:
“What kind of a life is that, 10,000 years with her?”
From that context, it’s possible the New Born singing the line (to Brunnen-G Elder Lett) is simply pointing out that 10,000 years with the geezer’s wife would suck. That amount of time might not have already passed, it might just be an example of a bad potential outcome of immortality.
From “Too Much To Remember”:
“It’s a funny thing how time flies, 6,000 years go by so fast.”
This line, sung by Groo, (the geezer’s wife), seems to rather concretely state a literal passage of time. So, I think Brunnis 2 is at least 6,000 years old. But the 10,000 year figure is somewhat softer.
quote[quote] Marty Simon voiced brain 14, he was the voice that calls out “The Prophecy is upon us!” on the journey to the Lexx. [/quote]
All the brains know about the prophecy, as when HDS talks of commanding the Lexx himself, they all cry out, “BUT THE PROPHECY!”
They prolly just told each other about it, but may not know the specific wording (which is why they look into the Dunsworth DP).
quote[quote] The shield around Brunnis 2 was impenetrable, from both directions. The Brunnen-G shut themselves off from the universe, they didn’t want to leave the planet, no longer wanted to see what was going on outside and sure as heck didn’t want anyone to come in, there was no code. [/quote]
That is possible. The wording of the first song certainly suggests the shield cannot be penetrated from either side. That again leaves us with the question of how HDS killed Brunnen-G who lived on Brunnis. Of course, even if the shield is impassable from either side, we don’t know when the weak points first appeared, or if any other Brunnen-G knew about them.
And it still seems unlikely to me that the Brunnen-G would essentually trap themselves on their own planet. As a race that develops a great fear of death, trapping themselves so that they CANNOT leave their planet seems contrary to their nature. What about natural disasters? You’d think they’d leave themselves some kind of means of escape.
quote[quote] Brunnen-G may have been killed by a Shadow possesed individual long before the forming of the Divine Order, assuming that the events shown at the beginning of Mantrid occured before the erection of the shield. [/quote]
That is also possible. It’s something we can only guess at, at this point.
quote[quote] Thodin knew about the Brunnen-G presumably because some records still existed of the Insect Wars and the Brunnen-G’s part in them. [/quote]
But Thodin also knew about the Prophecy, which was originally known only by the Time Prophet, Kai, the dead on Brunnis 2, and His Shadow. You’d think HDS would keep a lid on that info getting out anywhere else, if he could help it.
Valdron wrote:
quote[quote] “Shooting black sheets from your body is a pretty impressive power.” But it may not have been an inherent shadow power, it may have been technological. Alternately, so what, anyone with a blackpak could do the same. Shooting bullets out of your navel might impress the locals, but you’re not going to be the new Pope. [/quote]
Aw, come on. There’s no reason to believe it wasn’t an inherent power. Besides which, inherent or not, what matters is that it was god-like (which it was). I can “walk on water” using water skis and not impress anybody. But do it Jesus-style, I might drop some jaws.
quote[quote] HDS did not manifest ‘godlike’ powers, so far as I know, there was effective immortality, possibly longevity of bodies, the memory stealing thing, and a few shadow tricks like walking around without a brain. [/quote]
HDS was clearly a god-figure in the religion of the Divine Order:
1. Thodin calls it a “false religion.”
2. The Order is run by “Clerics,” a religious term.
3. Clerics work in “temples,” again religious.
4. Enemies are called “Heretics,” a religious term.
5. Citizens are refered to as “His Shadows loyal followers,” indicating a religion.
6. Citizens use “I worship His Shadow” as a greeting, and “May His Shadow fall upon you” as a parting comment.
7. Definition of “Divine”: “Being or having the nature of a deity. Godlike.” Ergo, “His Godlike Shadow.”quote:
If HDS had nothing but time, I could see them playing a careful game, expanding gradually, forever consolidating, bursts and consolidation.
In short, in my view, its entirely possible that the Divine Order existed in some form before the migration to Brunnis 2.
I will concede it is possible, if you will concede the opposite is also possible. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] We just don’t know.
quote[quote] 790’s statement on first reading seems to suggest a recent wave of expansion 2000 years before. But it doesn’t say it was the first such wave, although that inference might be drawn. Nor does it give any background on the prior development. It may be consistent with 790 to say that the expansion referred to was only the latest in a series of them over a dozen millenia. [/quote]
790:
“When His Divine Shadow became powerful, and started to take over the Light Universe, one of the first planets he attacked was Brunnis 2, the Brunnen-G planet.”
“… and started to take over the Light Universe…” This indicates no prior periods of expansion. Otherwise, it would be said he “started” back then, and not during Kai’s time. He wouldn’t “start” to take over the universe over a period of 6,000-10,000 years. The only potential thing that may have come before, is that “His Shadow became powerful.” This could mean just about anything, I suppose, EXCEPT that he’d already started to take over the Light Universe. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] 790 actually insinuates that becoming powerful and starting the takeover happened at the same time.
quote[quote] Alternately, 790 might be considered an unreliable narrator. Certainly, he is a biased and unreliable narrator injecting his personal views and prejudices into other aspects of 790. [/quote]
Not in this instance, I think, as 790 and the Lexx were in some sort of spacial distortion that made them extra-lucid, and gave them both greater insights into what the history of the situation was.
quote:
Essentially, Sgt. it seems to me that your
theory calls for disregarding at least some statements. It’s tempting to do so. But I think that a theory which most succesfully incorporates the most statements wins out.
I’m not trying to “win out,” I’m simply trying to get to the bottom of the situation, so I can finish my Insect Wars script and send it in. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] This is a fun discussion, but after a point, we’re not going to get any further until we can interview some Beans.
quote[quote] The Gigashadow, referring to the first individual he took over says “And I became the first Divine Shadow…” [/quote]
Actually, he says:
“I became His Divine Shadow, the most powerful ruler in the two universes.”
It is implied that that miner was the first person known as HDS, but it is again impossible to be sure without the Beans.
I thought that statement about “the most powerful ruler in the two universes” was interesting. It implies knowledge of the Dark Zone. Not sure what to make of it, other than its similiarity to Lexx’s line:
“I am His Divine Shadow. I am the most powerful ruler in the two universes. I was born on the Cluster, which is ruled… by ME.” [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
quote:
I’ll agree with that, Stan was well aware of the Insect Wars long after Kai’s death 2008 years before. I suspect that the Insect
Wars and Brunnen G were well known in legend.
It’s also reasonable to assume that the Brunnen G would have sent scouting parties all over the Light Universe looking for their new home, and followed with embassies, trading delegations, whatnot. So, in all likelihood, they’re fairly well known.
The Insect Wars had “faded into a hazy past” by the time the Brunnen-G had permanently moved into the Light Universe, 8,000+ years before Stan’s time. Now, I do believe that, at some point, the Brunnen-G and the Prophecy did become legends specifically with the Ostral-B (which is where Stan is from), but I think the majority of the universe had forgotten they existed, including His Shadow. Otherwise, Brunnis 2 would have been THE first planet destroyed, as HDS would view the people who led humanity to victory before, as his greatest threat.
Then again, we run into the Super Nova problem: HDS has already killed people who lived on Brunnis. Ergo, you’d think he would already know about Brunnis 2. Even if they hadn’t founded Brunnis 2 yet, one would think he’d at least know of their plans.
quote:
HDS knew about the prophecy because he ate Kai and visited the Time Prophet. But Kai never got the chance to talk much to anyone
outside, so far as we know. I don’t think HDS was the kind of guy to let something like that slip out after a few beers, not if he took it seriously. And the HDS did take it seriously, after the Prophecy, they never left the Cluster.So how does Thodin know about the Prophecy?
As far as I’m concerned, the Time Prophet must have blabbed after the fact.
There’s another interesting topic. I simply can’t imagine His Divine Shadow allowing the Time Prophet to remain where she was, providing potentially valuable information to his enemies. At the very least, she would be imprisoned, and heavily guarded so only His Shadow would have access. You’d think he’d have had her cleansed. Of course, Vlad tells us that she killed the Time Prophet. And then there is the running theory that Vlad IS the Time Prophet (which I like).
I think the most likely occurence is that, once HDS was done with his visit to the Time Prophet, his bio-scholars transformed her into Vlad; HDS’s ultimate weapon against the prophecy. After all, HDS knew of the prophecy before he made Kai into an assassin. He could have simply obliterated Kai, but he wanted “punishment beyond death.” Vlad was HDS’s insurance policy that Kai would not come back to bite him in the arse.
I am more and more convinced that the Ostral-B visited Brunnis. They have clear knowledge of the Fractal Core. It was obviously an important piece of information to them, encoded and transported by their couriers. What do you guys think they might have used it for?
quote[quote] The truth of it is that we can’t be sure just how much of it they thought through, or what parts. Some of this stuff they’d had in mind as early as 1993. Some of it they just pulled out of their butts on the day of shooting. Some of it, heck, some of it, they just don’t have a clue, and if you ask, you get wild guesses or sudden inspiration. [/quote]
Oh, absolutely correct. I’ve seen several reviews of the first four movies, which expressed the opinion that the Beans were making it up as they went along. And they probably did. But I still enjoy trying to shape the whole thing into a more concrete history, protecting our universe from chaos and disorder. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
And it further strikes me that there is SO much more to potentially explore, story-wise, with the Insect Wars, the Brunnen-G, and the Heretics’ struggle against the Divine Order. Now THAT’S a spin-off I’d like to see, which is why I keep hoping for more hints that time has ended, and begun again.
quote:
So, I think we’ve taken this debate as far as it can go. Nothing left for you to do, Sgt. Draino, but go ahead and ask Lex G when he shows up in chat. Maybe he’s got the
answer and its all been worked out. Or maybe he’ll pull a monkey out of his butt and give you an answer that isn’t a fraction as carefully thought out as we’ve been doing. But it’ll be an answer.
Looking forward to that day, believe you me. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]