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Valdron wrote:
>Sorry, I can’t quote you the site. I recall
>the Beans were quite definitive in the chat
>though, which punctured my argument that
>the Insect Wars had taken place in the Dark
>Zone. The sting left a memory. They may
>well have said somewhere else that the wars
>actually were in the Dark Zone, they can be
>mischievous that way.Anybody got anything concrete on this?
Both Super Nova and Brigadoom seem to indicate the Great Insect Wars took place in the Dark Zone, rather than the Light Universe:
In Super Nova, on Brunnis, Stanley views the memory of General Kraito, who “defeated the Insects at the Battle of Virian.”
In Brigadoom, the narrator indicates the Brunnen-G first defeated the Insects, then left their dying planet in the Dark Zone and found a new home in the Light Universe.
Admittedly, the episode Mantrid shows the last surviving Insect is hiding in the Light Universe. I’d always imagined that it escaped from the Dark Zone where its fellow Insects were defeated, and that the memory of getting its Insect arse kicked so hard is what made the Dark Zone a realm where His Divine Shadow feared to go.
Can anybody source any Bean quotes that would settle this issue?
I say light zone because:
a.the beans said so.
b.because there’s no real proof on any episode of the show that shows that it could’ve happened in the dark zone,while there is frequent proof for the light zone.It is possible that the Wars extended into the Dark Zone, but all solid evidence points to the Light Zone as the battlefield between the forces of humanity and the Insect civilization.
Could you both please elaborate?
When and where did the Beans say so?
What frequent proof and solid evidence do we have that they happened in the Light Universe?
I have to agree with the Sgt about this. Most of what we have seen points to the wars takeing place in the DZ. Its just simple logic. The Brunnen G lived in the DZ and there for it is very possible to assume that the wars took place there.
-SM
quote:
Originally posted by sgtdraino:
When and where did the Beans say so?
February 6, 2000, in a chat with Lex G., Paul D. and Michael M. Archived on Dr. Del’s site at: http://doktorsdiary.crosswinds.net/Lexx/beanchat.htm
In the following quote, Righty is Lex G. typing for the other two.
quote:
Righty: Okay, Paul and MM and I are to answer your dripping questions
Dragonfly: oh wow
Cat: I’ve got one… what universe did the insect wars take place in?
starbuck: how about if the lexx is hungry and can’t move what is powering the Lexx and the Cryo tubes?Righty: The Insect Wars took place in the Light Universe
–Aleck
fact a:the giga shadow was in the light zone.
fact b:”Millennia ago, the Brunnen-G lead Humanity to victory in the War against the Insect Civilization.” – Kai In I worship his shadow. It would seem that brunnis-2 should be older than that.well while looking for other quotes I’ve also saw this from brigadoom:”Mankind survived, but the Brunnen-G planet was dying, so in time they abandoned it, for a new home in the light universe.”
That would indicate it took place in the dark zone despite it being said that it took place in the light zone.
but I’m gonna go by what the beans said…
quote:
Originally posted by The_Steven_Bell:
well while looking for other quotes I’ve also saw this from brigadoom:”Mankind survived, but the Brunnen-G planet was dying, so in time they abandoned it, for a new home in the light universe.”That would indicate it took place in the dark zone despite it being said that it took place in the light zone
No they’re planet was dying because their sun would explode if soem special gadgets stopped working.
They probably went to he light zone because its safer there. The Dark zone is the universe of evil chaos and depravity.Aleck, thanks for the chat link. Very informative!
The_Steven_Bell, “millenia” means thousands of years. We’re never told exactly how many. However, it is worth noting that Brunnis 2 is probably not more than 3000 years old: In Super Nova, Stanley views the memory of a dead Brunnen-G on Brunnis. In the memory, the Time Prophet dates Stanley’s visit to Brunnis as taking place 5000 years after that Brunnen-G’s death. We know Brunnis 2 was destroyed 2000 years prior to Stanley’s visit, so the Brunnen-G can only have lived on Brunnis 2 for a maximum of 3000 years… and thats assuming they moved there the day after that dead Brunnen-G dude died. (did that make sense?)
On the other hand, the fact that the dead Brunnen-G guy visited the Time Prophet at all, means they were even then traveling to the Light Universe (unless the Time Prophet is somehow simultaneously located in both universes, which I doubt). This could simply mean they routinely traveled back-and-forth… or it could mean that dying Brunnen-G always try to return to their original planet, to preserve their memory in the memory catacombs.
Headgehog, the Brunnen-G didn’t leave Brunnis because they were afraid their stabilizers would stop working, Kai tells us in Super Nova that they left when their sun could no longer sustain life on the planet. This probably refers to the planet’s ecosystem; it does look pretty barren when our crew visit it. Presumeably the Brunnen-G left the stabilizers on out of a sense of nostalgia. Or for the memory catacombs (see above).
And as for the Dark Zone being a universe of evil, chaos, depravity, and darkness… I think that’s propaganda used by His Divine Shadow to keep folks out of there. There aren’t many good planets… but there are some!
Back to Aleck, yep, the Beans sound pretty firm about the Insect Wars happening in the Light Universe.
Since Brigadoom is also quite firm that the Brunnen-G first defeated the Insects, then moved to the Light Universe when they realized their planet was dying, it seems that they must have traveled back and forth between universes on multiple occasions, during their campaign against the Insects. This actually starts to make more sense after what Kai said in The Game: The Brunnen-G seem to have a significant knowledge of how to travel between various “zones.”
Man, is there anything they CAN’T do?
1. Preserve their memories.
2. Play chess after death (???)
3. Bio-engineer insect craft.
4. Prevent suns from going supernova.
5. Halt their aging process.
6. Build impenetrable planetary shields.
7. Travel between universes at will.Anybody got any others?
If the Insect Civilization was restricted to the Light Universe, and defeated from a powerful enemy originating from the Dark Zone, this would again explain why His Shadow is afraid to go there.
[ 19-03-2002: Message edited by: sgtdraino ]
quote:
Originally posted by sgtdraino:
Man, is there anything they CAN’T do?
1. Preserve their memories.
2. Play chess after death (???)
3. Bio-engineer insect craft.
4. Prevent suns from going supernova.
5. Halt their aging process.
6. Build impenetrable planetary shields.
7. Travel between universes at will.Anybody got any others?
Well, there’s the obvious:
8. Tattoo maps.
9. Create elaborate hairstyles.quote:
Originally posted by sgtdraino:
If the Insect Civilization was restricted to the Light Universe, and defeated from a powerful enemy originating from the Dark Zone, this would again explain why His Shadow is afraid to go there.
And as we see in 4.18 The Game, His Divine Shadow was merely a rook in Prince’s game. Just how old is Prince? And just exactly why did the Brunnen-G decide to leave the Dark Zone behind? Was it because something was there that was so terrible that the Light Zone with it’s Insect Civilization looked far more inviting?
A few fans go on and on about a “cycle of time” theory where the fourth series will end with the beginning of the first series. I doubt that. I have a theory that it is, in fact, Prince who has been the cause of all the troubles for the Brunnen-G and the rest of humanity.
quote:
Originally posted by Flamegrape:
And as we see in 4.18 The Game, His Divine Shadow was merely a rook in Prince’s game. Just how old is Prince? And just exactly why did the Brunnen-G decide to leave the Dark Zone behind? Was it because something was there that was so terrible that the Light Zone with it’s Insect Civilization looked far more inviting?
A few fans go on and on about a “cycle of time” theory where the fourth series will end with the beginning of the first series. I doubt that. I have a theory that it is, in fact, Prince who has been the cause of all the troubles for the Brunnen-G and the rest of humanity.
Interesting theory about Prince, but it could still lead to a cycle of time.
In the main cycle theories I’ve seen (including my own) the Lexx crew arrived at the beginning of time when only Fire and Water existed as planets with life, so Prince was their from the beginning as well.
So it could well be that Prince has been the person responsible for all future events, what’s interesting is that there’s a good chance Kai will become alive again (Xev seemed quite reassured Prince would keep his promise), what’s to say he does and fathers Xev’s children, then they go on to be the founders of the Brunnen G and the whole cycle begins again.
It may be that the whole thing is like Chess, where Prince is the ultimate evil and the Lexx crew are the bearers of good, at the same time saying that good isn’t an entity, but the actions of a few i.e the Lexx crew can be all the good that is needed, things like the chess game might point to this.
I still think the crew with Princes meddling are going to be responsible for their own futures by the actions they are now taking, and that the insect civilization rose from Lexx being pregnant, so not only has the crew gone full circle but so has the Lexx itself.
I think the cycle of time theory has merit, and as the beans themselves said ‘they like full circle’, so your theory may be part of that as well.
Squishy
quote:
Originally posted by sgtdraino:
The_Steven_Bell, “millenia” means thousands of years. We’re never told exactly how many. However, it is worth noting that Brunnis 2 is probably not more than 3000 years old: In Super Nova, Stanley views the memory of a dead Brunnen-G on Brunnis. In the memory, the Time Prophet dates Stanley’s visit to Brunnis as taking place 5000 years after that Brunnen-G’s death. We know Brunnis 2 was destroyed 2000 years prior to Stanley’s visit, so the Brunnen-G can only have lived on Brunnis 2 for a maximum of 3000 years… and thats assuming they moved there the day after that dead Brunnen-G dude died. (did that make sense?)On the other hand, the fact that the dead Brunnen-G guy visited the Time Prophet at all, means they were even then traveling to the Light Universe (unless the Time Prophet is somehow simultaneously located in both universes, which I doubt). This could simply mean they routinely traveled back-and-forth… or it could mean that dying Brunnen-G always try to return to their original planet, to preserve their memory in the memory catacombs.
Headgehog, the Brunnen-G didn’t leave Brunnis because they were afraid their stabilizers would stop working, Kai tells us in Super Nova that they left when their sun could no longer sustain life on the planet. This probably refers to the planet’s ecosystem; it does look pretty barren when our crew visit it. Presumeably the Brunnen-G left the stabilizers on out of a sense of nostalgia. Or for the memory catacombs (see above).
The person asking about the mineral deposits on Aurelium 4 could not have been part of the Brunnen-G civilization on Brunnis-1. That was 5,000 years ago, the evacuation of Brunnis-1 took place more like 12,000 years prior to that point. He was probably just an explorer who stumbled upon the planet and decided to undergo the memory procedure not really knowing what it was, like Kai and Zev.
I think the Time Prophet’s planetoid is located in a pocket universe accessible from both the Dark Zone and the Light Zone by those knowledgeable.
The Brunnen-G probably searched for a home for a while in both universes before they found one that was close to Brunnis-1 in ecology and was not in a seemingly dangerous area (at that point the Divine Order would have been nonexistent or a small cult that did not seem like a threat to the shielded world).
They left the stabilizers on because there would be no point in turning them off. That’s dangerous, man.
Squishy, I too am really big into the idea that our crew is now into the next cycle of time, thanks to collapsing the Light Universe. However, in that same chat where the Beans said the Wars took place in the Light Universe, they also said that the Light Universe’s collapse had NO effect on the Dark Zone.
Maybe they’ve changed their minds? Maybe? Hopefully?DalekTek wrote:
quote
The person asking about the mineral deposits on Aurelium 4 could not have been part of the Brunnen-G civilization on Brunnis-1.
Why not?
quote
That was 5,000 years ago, the evacuation of Brunnis-1 took place more like 12,000 years prior to that point.
Based on what canon?
quote
He was probably just an explorer who stumbled upon the planet and decided to undergo the memory procedure not really knowing what it was, like Kai and Zev.
An explorer who not only visited the Time Prophet, but also visited Brunnis, died there, and happened to be the one non-Brunnen-G in the memory catacombs, who’s memory Stanley just happened to touch?
Side note: Can’t quite tell on my copy, but can anyone see what the Brunnen-G guy is writing, in the memory that says, “Days pass quickly now, and our sun continues to die…” Is it… english?
quote
I think the Time Prophet’s planetoid is located in a pocket universe accessible from both the Dark Zone and the Light Zone by those knowledgeable.
What do you base this theory on?
[ 20-03-2002: Message edited by: sgtdraino ]
quote:
Originally posted by sgtdraino:
An explorer who not only visited the Time Prophet, but also visited Brunnis, died there, and happened to be the one non-Brunnen-G in the memory catacombs, who’s memory Stanley just happened to touch?
Yeah! Isn’t it hilariously unlikely? It’s like the Time Prophet said, “Never mind you and your stupid question! I have to tell Stanely Tweedle something important!” When I saw that scene I was literally ROFL!
In Brigadoom, set at the time of Kai’s death, their songs reference living for 6000 years and 10,000 years.
It is stated in Brigadoom that the Brunnen G did not achieve immortality until they had crossed into the Light Universe and established themselves on Brunnis 2. This was supported by Supernova when Kai notes that the archaic Brunnen G had not mastered the secrets of life.
If we assume that at the time of Kai’s death the oldest immortals were still kicking around, and that immortality was achieved shortly after settling on Brunnis, then we have a time period of 12,000 years.
This leaves the problem of a 5000 year old recording on Brunnis. Either the two are incompatible, or we must assume that the person questioning the time prophet could not have been a Brunnen G. He’s 7,000 years off the date set in Brigadoom. In addition, the Brunnen G have been behind their shield, so its not like it was someone visiting the old homeland.
We are not shown the questioner, so we cannot affirm by his appearance or hair that he is Brunnen G. His only interest is in mineral deposits. I would therefore suggest
that he is a prospector or treasure hunter who visited the time prophet and eventually
at the end of his life, wound up on Brunnis.His appearance in the memory banks is not impossible. It is very clear that Poetman spent the last years of his life corrupting the Brunnen G systems, inserting messages, and leaving *traps*. Indeed, his interference with the ‘Burst of Life’ message, was a clear trap for the unwary.
It would only capture those not familiar with archaic Brunnen G terms.Indeed, given the fact that he was a prospector/treasure hunter, it isn’t unreasonable that he would have gone to the Time Prophet and to the probably legendary Brunnis at different points in his life.
However, its possible that the Time Prophet
may have sent him to Brunnis.There is some evidence that the Beans did not originally intend such a vast span of time. In Supernova, the Divine Predecessors claim to possess the memories of archaic Brunnen G who walked the streets of Brunnis.
This would put the Divine Order itself at well over 12,000 years.However, in Brigadoom, and in IWHS, there is a suggestion that the fall of Brunnis marked the rise of the Divine Order. Which suggests
either that the Divine Order is only a few thousand years older than Kai, perhaps 3000 to 6000 years old in total. Or perhaps that the Divine Order was quiescent for 10,000 years before attempting to conquer the Universe?Another question comes from the fact that it was the 14th Divine Shadow that killed Kai.
If each Divine Shadow lived only a century, that’s not much of a history after all. But there were, according to the first season, only four Divine Shadows after the one that killed Kai, implying an average lifespan of at between 500 and 800 years. This puts the founding of the Divine Order somewhere between 7,000 and 12,000 years before the
IWHS present.Frankly, I’m not sure the Beans fully thought it out, but may have just thought
‘thousands of years’. But we are left with
the canon they’ve handed down.As to the Time Prophet’s location. The
Time Prophet appeared to Kai, who travelled
from the Light Universe. In Gigashadow we
see that the Divine Shadow also consulted
with the Time Prophet, in the Light Universe, apparently. Vlad, in episode of
the same name, claimed to have found and killed the Time Prophet and then travelled to the Dark Zone, suggesting the Light Universe again.However, in Supernova, it appears that someone from the Dark Zone travelled to see the Time Prophet. Either they travelled between universes to find her, or she’s accessible from the Dark Zone.
Also, interestingly, Brigadoom tells us that shortly after the Brunnen G crossed into the light Universe they built their shield and vanished from human memory. But the Time Prophet was still a part of their cultural traditions. Those cultural traditions must have been formed in the Dark Zone.
In Brigadoom, Kai or the Master of Ceremonies refers to the Time Prophet’s home as “this uncertain moon.”
Possibly that might refer to a body whose status as a moon or planet or asteroid is questionable. But given they mystical aspects I suggest the ‘uncertain’ nature of the moon may have been in its position in
the reality of the Universe. A mystical place, not quite embedded in Space and Time.Note that the Time Prophet’s visions clearly include both the Light Universe and the Dark Zone.
For me, the best fit for the Time Prophet may simply be that she is related, or her powers are derived from the ‘players’ of Brigadoom, who are themselves beings outside of normal space and time.
quote:
Originally posted by Valdron:
In Supernova, the Divine Predecessors claim to possess the memories of archaic Brunnen G who walked the streets of Brunnis.
This would put the Divine Order itself at well over 12,000 years.
It is theoretically possible that the Brunnen-G were able to perfect immortality within a single generation (they may have had lifespans of centuries already), and Brunnen-G who walked the streets of Brunnis-1 survived for millennia, to be taken when the Divine Order destroyed Brunnis-2.
quote:
Originally posted by Valdron:
Another question comes from the fact that it was the 14th Divine Shadow that killed Kai. If each Divine Shadow lived only a century, that’s not much of a history after all. But there were, according to the first season, only four Divine Shadows after the one that killed Kai, implying an average lifespan of at between 500 and 800 years. This puts the founding of the Divine Order somewhere between 7,000 and 12,000 years before the IWHS present.
Where exactly was that stated? The credits list Marty Simon as the voice of “Brain No. 14.” Now, I remember reading that Jeffrey Hirschfield voiced the Divine Predecessor that Kai crushed to take back his memory. So that would be a different number (I assume “Brain No. 14” means the brain of the fourteenth Divine Shadow host). Also, I don’t remember it being said that there were four Divine Shadows after the one that killed Kai. Where exactly do those figures come from?
quote:
Originally posted by Valdron:
However, in Supernova, it appears that someone from the Dark Zone travelled to see the Time Prophet. Either they travelled between universes to find her, or she’s accessible from the Dark Zone.Also, interestingly, Brigadoom tells us that shortly after the Brunnen G crossed into the light Universe they built their shield and vanished from human memory. But the Time Prophet was still a part of their cultural traditions. Those cultural traditions must have been formed in the Dark Zone.
Perhaps the Time Prophet was Brunnen-G. The earliest records of her were only 3,000 years prior to Kai’s death. She could have been an immortal Brunnen-G who chose to leave Brunnis-2, like Kai. Perhaps her clairvoyant knowledge of time and space caused her to be feared and hated by her fellow Brunnen-G. Perhaps she possessed extrasensory knowledge of the topography of the universes, which allowed her, after she left or was exiled, to find a weak spot in the time-space fabric that would take her to a pocket universe which would give her a better “view” or the various cosmoi, and set up shop there, so to speak. Just a thought.
All right. Nope, the Time Prophet could not be a renegade Brunnen G who left 3000 years before Kai. Nor could HDS have consumed immortal Brunnen G, either outside Brunnis 2 or at the destruction of Brunnis.
It is very clear from Brigadoom that Kai was the only survivor. The Master of Ceremonies states that “the foreshadow rained sheets of energy down which incinerated the planets surface” this was actuall shown in both IWHS and Brigadoom.
There were no surface actions, there were no escaping refugees. HDS appears to have been located on the Foreshadow. The only people who escaped the planet were those who participated in the suicidal attack on the megashadow.
The Master of Ceremonies in Brigadoom also states that Kai was the first person to go beyond the shield. That seems to kill the Time Prophet theory. It also means that no other Immortal Brunnen G would have left Brunnis 2 to be killed by an HDS prior to the attack on Brunnis.
Further, the Master of Ceremonies in Brigadoom states that the Brunnen G did not unlock immortality until after the shield was established. So no immortal Brunnen G wandering the Universe to get jumped on by HDS.
As for the number of Divine Shadows, Only two Divine Shadows, by the way, mentioned
by rank – The 14th, Marty Simon, and the
16th who got fingered by the other brains in Eating Pattern. But this establishes their minimum number as 16. Neither of these are
the HDS who killed Kai. Which limits us to
17 and up, 15th, or 13th and down.Because I have no life, I actually counted the number of Divine Predecessors destroyed in the first season. 12 are killed between IWHS and
Eating Pattern. Cluster Lizard 1, Kai 1, Zev 1, Stan 2 in IWHS, Giggerotta 2 in Supernova, Stan 1 and Bog 4 in Eating Pattern. The Gigashadow visibly destroys 5.
Together with the final Divine Shadow of IWHS, that gives us at least eighteen.None survived the Gigashadow, but who knows,
perhaps there were more than were shown exploding. During the Stanley Tweedle songs, 12 ‘alcoves’ are shown. But the camera doesn’t show them actually inhabited.
It’s possible there may have been another seven shown whose destruction was not shown.It’s possible that a few may have been lost
or disintegrated through old age, prior to IWHS, but this doesn’t seem likely. The Divine Shadows seemed very fastidious about their predecessors, further, I can’t imagine a situation where a Divine Shadow could not have a predecessor – the whole essence thing. As for disintegration through old age, if they’ve got the memories of people who lived on Brunnis, it would seem to me that they would go back to the very very early days. From what we’ve seen, individual predecessors kept memories that they didn’t share with other predecessors.
It’s possible that a predecessor disintegrating over millenia shared its memories with its descendants, but there’s no evidence for that either way. We can’t rely upon that.I am relying upon discussions recorded in Lexxplorations as to the age and periodicity of predecessors. You might want to check
that site. The assumed that DP 14 was the one that killed Kai. I have no basis to disprove this, because the voice of HDS
that killed Kai was not identified.Jeff Hirschfield voiced the Divine Predecessor that Kai crushed to take his memories back? Where did you read this?
Ooh, I am loving this discussion!
Valdron:
quote
In Brigadoom, set at the time of Kai’s death, their songs reference living for 6000 years and 10,000 years.
That’s right! Amazing. I listen to those songs all the time, yet I forgot about those lines:
“6000 years go by so fast…”
“10,000 years with her…”quote
This leaves the problem of a 5000 year old recording on Brunnis. Either the two are incompatible, or we must assume that the person questioning the time prophet could not have been a Brunnen G. He’s 7,000 years off the date set in Brigadoom. In addition, the Brunnen G have been behind their shield, so its not like it was someone visiting the old homeland.
Not necessarily. We don’t actually know how easy or hard it was to travel beyond the shield. If it is the same design used by the Ostral-B, passing the shield is a simple matter. It may have been a tradition for dying or dead Brunnen-G to return to Brunnis to have their memory stored in the memory catacombs. Remember, even though they had halted their aging process, they could still not completely cheat death. There were still diseases, accidents, or other circumstances which would occasionally bring them mortality. We know they turned inward and built a shield, but we don’t know at what point they stopped leaving Brunnis 2 altogether.
quote:
In Supernova, the Divine Predecessors claim to possess the memories of archaic Brunnen G who walked the streets of Brunnis.
This would put the Divine Order itself at well over 12,000 years.
I actually don’t remember this bit, but let’s assume it’s true. HDS steals the memories of each human he kills. This is almost certainly an Insect trait. HDS is derived from an Insect essence which battled the Brunnen-G during the Insect Wars, which occured before the Brunnen-G moved to Brunnis 2. Ergo, it is entirely possible the Predecessors possess the memories of some of these ancient Brunnen-G, killed during the Wars.
quote
But there were, according to the first season, only four Divine Shadows after the one that killed Kai,
I don’t remember this ever being stated anywhere. Where is it from?
quote:
As for the number of Divine Shadows, Only two Divine Shadows, by the way, mentioned
by rank – The 14th, Marty Simon, and the
16th who got fingered by the other brains in Eating Pattern. But this establishes their minimum number as 16. Neither of these are
the HDS who killed Kai. Which limits us to
17 and up, 15th, or 13th and down.
It sounds like, though we have a minimum number, we don’t have a maximum number at all. Ergo, there’s no way of telling how short the average lifespan of a Divine Shadow is.
quote:
I am relying upon discussions recorded in Lexxplorations as to the age and periodicity of predecessors. You might want to check
that site. The assumed that DP 14 was the one that killed Kai. I have no basis to disprove this, because the voice of HDS
that killed Kai was not identified.
If Marty Simon is DP 14, then obviously Lexxplorations is wrong in thinking that DP 14 killed Kai… unless Marty Simon (and not Jeffery) was the original voice of His Shadow. Anybody?
quote
All right. Nope, the Time Prophet could not be a renegade Brunnen G who left 3000 years before Kai.
The Time Prophet can’t be Brunnen-G for one simple reason: She says Kai is “the last of his people to die.” Since the Time Prophet is killed after Kai, she cannot be Brunnen-G herself, as that would make HER the last of Kai’s people to die.
quote
The Master of Ceremonies in Brigadoom also states that Kai was the first person to go beyond the shield. That seems to kill the Time Prophet theory. It also means that no other Immortal Brunnen G would have left Brunnis 2 to be killed by an HDS prior to the attack on Brunnis.
It seems clear that, by Kai’s time, Brunnen-G pretty much stayed at home… but I don’t recall anything specific about Kai being the first to go beyond the shield ever since the shield was put up. Can you be sure that they NEVER traveled beyond the shield once it was installed?
Yeah, I didn’t expect the Time Prophet thing to hold up. It was just a thought.
But the Brunnen-G thing is still possible. They wouldn’t have to have left Brunnis-2 and been killed previously. All I’m saying is that it’s possible that some of the Brunnen-G His Divine Shadow killed at Brunnis-2 may have been old enough to have lived on Brunnis-1, and that could be where the memories come from. Kai says he has the memories of others His Shadow killed, so it’s reasoable to say the Divine Shadows had those memories. And I assume they were collected at the assault on Brunnis-2.
I don’t think any Brunnen-G from Brunnis-2 went to Brunnis-1 to die. Any deaths on Brunnis-2 would have been sudden and unexpected (except for “death by aging” as a form of execution). And I don’t think any Brunnen-G would have gone all the way to the Time Prophet to ask about mineral deposits on a planet that wasn’t even Brunnis-2.
Another possible way of explaining the time discrepency could be derived from the fact that the Time Prophet gives the 5,000 year figure when talking to the person who asked the question. So she may have meant in his years. It is possible that years on Brunnis-1 were a third the length of standard years. The planets orbited two suns, and one was massive (it was probably a yellow giant at the time the Brunnen-G still lived on Brunnis-1). Greater gravity causes objects orbiting at the same distance to make faster revolutions. But this is a rather far-fetched explanation.
I don’t remember the site. It was toward the beginning of my Lexx interest. I remember thinking it was funny that 790 was also His Divine Shadow. And if you listen to the scene where the Divine Predecessors are discussing the prophecy, the one that confesses to preserving a Brunnen-G does sound sort of like 790.
Also, Ellen Dubin said she thought (though she didn’t seem completely sure) that Marty Simon provided the voice of one of the brains Giggerota speaks to in Super Nova. If this is true, it would probably mean that Brain No. 14 survived I Worship His Shadow, and thus could not be the one Kai crushed. But that’s still not proof.
[ 21-03-2002: Message edited by: DalekTek790 ]
All right, I went to a transcript of Brigadoom. Here’s what the Master of Ceremonies had to say about the History of the Brunnen G.
MOC:The Brunnen-G turned inward, building a great defensive shield around
their planet, safe inside their sphere of silence, they directed their
fertile minds against the oldest enemy of them all…death. By
manipulating their bodies innermost cell structure, they unlocked the
secret of never-ending life. No Brunnen-G Would ever grow old again,
they thought by freeing their bodies of aging, that they would become
immortal gods at play, but humans are not designed to live forever,
their bodies did not age, but they became a feared of everything and
anything, for partaking in any activity at all could threaten their
precious and ageless bodies.Now, this doesn’t say flat out that they
never ever went beyond the shield again, but
I would suggest that the reference to ‘sphere of silence’ was preffy close.
They’d cut themselves off from the Universe.MOC: By Kai’s time, the defensive shields that protected Brunnis-2 from the rest of the universe were
thousands of years old. Kai and his new born friends discovered that the shields had over time developed
weak points. They allowed them to see into the universe beyond, and what they saw was not good. Their
universe was one of war and chaos, his Divine Shadow’s order was on the rise conquering and destroying
planet after planet. Kai knew that he had to travel beyond the shields to learn his planets fate,This clearly implies that the shields worked both ways, consistent with the ‘sphere of silence.’ The Brunnen G could not see out,
and presumably could not leave at all. I can’t imagine them building doors into their shield but not building windows. Otherwise, they might risk leaving their planet open to a devastating military assault simply by going out for milk. There were no windows.
The newborns could only begin to see out when the shield had weakened in points.MOC: The Brunnen-G were angry, angrier than anyone could
remember. Kai was accused of betraying them, by breaching the shields, of opening the door, to enemies
who could destroy them.Again, this supports the inferences we’ve been building. It appears that the shield, by design or by the nature of its physics, prevented all travel. If someone could get out, then equally, someone could get in.
This view is supported by the Brunnen G singers who sang “He’s broken the shields, he’s broken the wall,” Simply by travelling
through them.MOC: Knowing that their shields were breached, communicated with the outside world for the first time in
millennia, they realised that Kai was rightThis doesn’t say exactly that there was no communication with the outside world since the shields went up. But the implication is there.
Ergo, there’s no suggestion that the Brunnen G ever went beyond their walls for any reason after their Shield went up, but plenty of references which support the notion that there was no communication or travel at all.
As to whether the memories could have been taken from immortal Brunnen G at the fall of Brunnis. There’s no indication that HDS killed any other Brunnen G personally, except for Kai. Most of them were vaporized by the Foreshadow’s planet destroying sheets, the ones that fought suicidally and died in space were newborns.
There’s also a big problem with that theory,
in that any other memories from the destruction of Brunnis 2 would have resided in the Divine Shadow who killed Kai, who became the Predecessor that Kai destroyed and whose memories, all of them, he took.
This Brain and those memories wouldn’t have survived to be in the group of Predecessors in Supernova.Valdron wrote:
quote
Kai notes that the archaic Brunnen G had not mastered the secrets of life.
His actual statement is considerably more contradictory than that.
Kai:
“I was not aware that the Brunnen-G unlocked the secrets of life.”Master of Ceremonies:
“They unlocked the secret of never-ending life.”DalekTek wrote:
quote
But the Brunnen-G thing is still possible. They wouldn’t have to have left Brunnis-2 and been killed previously. All I’m saying is that it’s possible that some of the Brunnen-G His Divine Shadow killed at Brunnis-2 may have been old enough to have lived on Brunnis-1, and that could be where the memories come from. Kai says he has the memories of others His Shadow killed, so it’s reasoable to say the Divine Shadows had those memories. And I assume they were collected at the assault on Brunnis-2.
The Time Prophet seems to make a big deal out of Kai’s life being personally taken by His Shadow himself, in connection with his memory being stolen. The impression I’ve always gotten, is that His Shadow only steals the memories of those he personally kills, in the same manner as we saw in IWHS. I did not get the impression that His Shadow stole the memories of every man, woman, and child killed when the Foreshadow destroyed Brunnis 2, from hundreds (or even thousands) of miles away up in space.
In Super Nova, the DPs’ exact words are:
“We possess the memories of the many thousands we killed, including some who lived on Brunnis.”This leaves 3 possibilities:
1. Some very old Brunnen-G on Brunnis 2 HAVE traveled beyond the shield, and were killed by HDS.
2. HDS stole the memories of everyone on Brunnis 2 when he destroyed the planet.
3. The memories are actually a residual of memories stolen from Brunnen-G killed by an Insect in the Insect Wars.Which option seems the most likely?
The DPs seem pretty firm on the idea that the memories are from those they killed (and not from those killed by Insects before they existed), so I think that tends to rule out #3.
The DPs killed “many thousands,” as opposed to millions or billions. This tends to rule out people indirectly killed by HDS. Otherwise, the number would probably be much, much higher, considering the Divine Order is at least several thousand years old. So, I think that tends to rule out #2.
To throw another wrench in this, however, Kai makes an unusual statement in The Game. Possibly a show mistake:
“I have the memories of the many great men I killed.”
Huh? The memories of men HE killed? Not His Shadow? This seems to go against everything we’ve heard in the show before. Kai got his memory back by killing a Divine Predecessor, and also got the memories of all those that DP killed. Before that point, Kai was a “mindless assassin.”
On the other hand, let me play devil’s advocate with myself: Perhaps stealing memories is related to protoblood. Perhaps stealing memories IS another duty carried out by Divine Assassins. After all, Divine Predecessors were killed by Gigerotta, Xev, Stanley, and Yottskry, but they didn’t get any of those DPs’ memories. And Kai clearly does have memories of carrying out assassinations for His Shadow. Could he also carry the memories of the victims themselves? He seems to think so.
In IWHS, when HDS confronts Kai at the end, he says:
“You have no memory of your life. The protoblood only allows you to do as I instruct!”Perhaps that is key: That the Divine Assassin does not get the memory of their OWN life back, but that the Assassin can and does routinely steal the memories of his victims for His Shadow.
Of course, if HDS also gets the memories of all those killed by Divine Assassins, you’d think that number would also run into the millions, billions, or even trillions, since on one single mission, Kai kills 2,808… and there are many other Divine Assassins besides Kai.
Back to the notion of the Foreshadow stealing the memories of everyone on Brunnis 2 as it destroyed the planet. If this was so, you’d also think His Shadow would possess the memories of everyone killed when the Reform Planets were destroyed:
685,304,000,000“Many thousands” would be one heck of an understatement, eh?
Perhaps he didn’t, because he wasn’t on a ship present at the destruction? It matters not. Divine Assassins could have been present on the ships to collect memories.
No, I think at most, His Shadow can only steal the memories of those directly killed by himself, or by his Divine Assassins.
Thoughts?
btw, HDS in The Game did sound similar (to me, anyway) to the original His Shadow. This HDS was voiced by the ubiquitous John Dunsworth. Could John Dunsworth have been the original HDS?
DalekTek wrote:
quote
I don’t think any Brunnen-G from Brunnis-2 went to Brunnis-1 to die. Any deaths on Brunnis-2 would have been sudden and unexpected (except for “death by aging” as a form of execution).
And any number of lingering diseases that may have plagued them. Or simply getting tired of living, for that matter. Some may have gone to Brunnis to die simply because they were ready to. In fact, the way the programming is set up, death and memory preservation seems to be regarded as a pleasant thing by the Brunnen-G.
Valdron wrote:
quote:
Now, this doesn’t say flat out that they
never ever went beyond the shield again, but
I would suggest that the reference to ‘sphere of silence’ was preffy close.
They’d cut themselves off from the Universe.
Certainly the shield (without weak points) made it so they couldn’t see out, and made it so people can’t traverse the shield without a key to the door, but it’s another thing to say whether or not they can travel beyond the shield, switch it on or off, or turn part of it off.
Sphere of silence means they cut off the outside universe… but it doesn’t mean they couldn’t venture out if they felt like it.
quote:
MOC: By Kai’s time, the defensive shields that protected Brunnis-2 from the rest of the universe were
thousands of years old. Kai and his new born friends discovered that the shields had over time developed
weak points that allowed them to see into the universe beyond, and what they saw was not good. Their
universe was one of war and chaos, his Divine Shadow’s order was on the rise conquering and destroying
planet after planet. Kai knew that he had to travel beyond the shields to learn his planets fate,
You will note, however, that “weak points” are not equated to traveling beyond the shield. Perhaps traveling beyond the shield is something unrelated to whether the shield has weak points or not.
quote:
This clearly implies that the shields worked both ways, consistent with the ‘sphere of silence.’ The Brunnen G could not see out,
and presumably could not leave at all.
That is, indeed, a presumption.
quote
I can’t imagine them building doors into their shield but not building windows.
Perhaps that is simply a nature of the technology that could not be circumvented. You can travel beyond it, but you can’t see through it.
quote:
MOC: The Brunnen-G were angry, angrier than anyone could
remember. Kai was accused of betraying them, by breaching the shields, of opening the door, to enemies
who could destroy them.
My impression of this scene, was that the New Born discovered the weak points, but that most Brunnen-G were not aware that they existed. When Kai traveled out, came back, and blabbed out his story to everyone, the weak points were discovered by everyone… and blamed on Kai.
Earlier, when the Brunnen-G are telling Kai to “stay behind,” there’s no implication that exploring will destroy the shields. Otherwise, I think they’d have been a bit more adamant! There were no cries of…
Stay, within these ancient walls,
Stay, within these ghostly halls,
Stay behiiiiiiiiind…
Or you’ll break our shields.Actually, they say “close the door.” And they say it long before Kai leaves, implying the “door” can be opened and closed.
quote:
This doesn’t say exactly that there was no communication with the outside world since the shields went up. But the implication is there.
Ergo, there’s no suggestion that the Brunnen G ever went beyond their walls for any reason after their Shield went up, but plenty of references which support the notion that there was no communication or travel at all.
First, we also don’t know whether communication is related to the weak points or not.
Second, it is unlikely the Brunnen-G went directly from being heroes of the Insect Wars, to being introverted isolationists. It is likely a condition that grew on them over time, beginning with the building of the shields, and continuing with the halting of their aging process. They wouldn’t go from saving the galaxy to total isolationism over night.
I also think it unlikely that they would totally cut themselves off from access to the Time Prophet, who seems to play an important role in their culture.
Then there’s the matter of the ship Kai uses to visit the Time Prophet. If there was truly no travel beyond the shield, then there would be no ships for Kai to use… unless he stole that one from a museum as well.
[ 21-03-2002: Message edited by: sgtdraino ]
I agree with the previous argument that HDS was not indirectly stealing memories at long range. That sort of thing collapses under its own weight.
I also agree that stealing memories for the HDS might have been a function of assassins, since Kai does what no one else who kills predecessors has. Of course, Kai being decarbonised, protoblood operated, and having his memories already in a predecessor waiting to come home might be a unique case.
He’s literally a memory channel, without barriers to an influx.It might be that HDS did some picking and choosing of the memories he would keep, or the memories he would take, which would cut
down on the number.The fact remains that it couldn’t have been other memories seized from the fall of Brunnis 2. That HDS was destroyed when Kai took his memories back.
I too have noted the contradictory statement of Kai about the Brunnen G in Supernova. I assume that Kai’s reference has to be to the archaic brunnen g of the dark zone, before the move to the light universe, and before the shield.
As for whether there was traffic beyond the shield after it went up. Did the Brunnen G ever leave after the shield, but before Kai.
I would have to say that there is no evidence whatsoever to support that contention. At best, we can only support such a notion by seeking ambiguity in statements which would seem to imply no traffic, and no communication.Isolationism was not a sudden thing. According to the MOC, by the time the Brunnen G had made it into the light universe, the insect wars were forgotten, man had fallen to warring with himself, and nobody cared about the Brunnen G. I think that the decision to build the barrier was a product of an isolationism that had been building for a while.
quote:
Originally posted by Valdron:
As to whether the memories could have been taken from immortal Brunnen G at the fall of Brunnis. There’s no indication that HDS killed any other Brunnen G personally, except for Kai. Most of them were vaporized by the Foreshadow’s planet destroying sheets, the ones that fought suicidally and died in space were newborns.There’s also a big problem with that theory,
in that any other memories from the destruction of Brunnis 2 would have resided in the Divine Shadow who killed Kai, who became the Predecessor that Kai destroyed and whose memories, all of them, he took. This Brain and those memories wouldn’t have survived to be in the group of Predecessors in Supernova.
I always thought the idea of His Divine Shadow absorbing the memories of many Brunnen-G was a little odd, since he only killed one personally, but it’s the only logical explanation for how Kai received their memories. It is tatted time and again that he possesses the memories of many Brunnen-G killed in the destruction of Brunnis-2, and he could only have gotten them from the Divine Predecessor. So His Shadow must have had them at some point, and must have taken them somehow. Perhaps it’s just lousy writing. Either Kai took those memories from His Divine Shadow or he is suffering from schizophrenic delusions.
The Divine Predecessors could look inside each other’s minds, and swap knowledge and memories. So one piece of information could exist in a number of brains simultaneously, and live on even after the from which it originated it was destroyed. I suspect a lot of this went on, since they wouldn’t have much else to do to pass the centuries.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt. Draino:
To throw another wrench in this, however, Kai makes an unusual statement in The Game. Possibly a show mistake:“I have the memories of the many great men I killed.”
Huh? The memories of men HE killed? Not His Shadow? This seems to go against everything we’ve heard in the show before. Kai got his memory back by killing a Divine Predecessor, and also got the memories of all those that DP killed. Before that point, Kai was a “mindless assassin.”
btw, HDS in The Game did sound similar (to me, anyway) to the original His Shadow. This HDS was voiced by the ubiquitous John Dunsworth. Could John Dunsworth have been the original HDS?
I noticed that, too. Michael McManus probably just read the line wrong.
I think it was John Dunstan, not Dunsworth. That’s what was previously posted, I couldn’t read the credits because they were squished.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt. Draino:
And any number of lingering diseases that may have plagued them. Or simply getting tired of living, for that matter. Some may have gone to Brunnis to die simply because they were ready to. In fact, the way the programming is set up, death and memory preservation seems to be regarded as a pleasant thing by the Brunnen-G.
I think you’re grasping at straws, here. The abandoned Brunnis-1 may have meen visited subsequently by non-Brunnen-G. It could have been like the ruins of Egypt, periodically visited by travellers, like the one seen in Super Nova. He could have been lured into a trap, or it could have been custom on one or more Dark Zone planets familiar with the Brunnen-G legend to undergo the Burst of Life when terminally ill. But there’s no plausible explanation for how a Brunnen-G could have died on Brunnis-1 5,000 standard years before the Fall of His Shadow.
A little off topic:
The names “Brunnen-G” and “Brunnis” have always reminded me of the UrðbrunnR and MímisbrunnR of Norse myth. It recently occurred to me that there is a discernible parallel between Mímir, keeper of MímisbrunnR, and the Time Prophet. MímisbrunnR was the Well of Knowledge. Óðin travelled to one of Yggdrasil’s roots and gave his right eye to Mímir for permission to drink from MímisbrunnR. When he did, he received knowledge of the past, present, and future, including the fact that he was destined to die at Ragnarök. I think this is kind of like Kai getting knowledge of the cycles of time from the Time Prophet, and maybe it inspired it and maybe “MímisbrunnR” inspired the name “Brunnis” (just cut off the first 3 letters and the final algiz and rearrange the remaining letters slightly).
There are other parallels. Time in Norse mythology was sort of cyclic, since it was believed that after Ragnarök the ranks of Æsir and Vanir will be decimated to make way for a new set of gods in the new universe. Also, Mímir was decapitated by the Vanir, but didn’t die. His head survived, and Óðin would carry it around with him, and it revealed many occult secrets to him. Inspiration for 790? Then there’s the fact that another name for Óðin was “Þódin,” which was pronounced like “Thodin.” Thodin had one eye, remember? And the Cluster Lizards roll with the jaws clasping the tail, the position of the MiðgarðsormR (the Norse Ouroboros).
I guess the point I’m trying to make, here (besides the fact that I can reproduce diacritical accent marks on my computer) is that one of the Beans may be a mythology buff, and may have been influenced by Norse myth in the creation of the Lexx movies. Or it could all be a coincidence, I don’t know.
As to the Norse connection, it could be there. I suspect, however, its largely unconscious. Odin, Thor and that lot are
fairly well known, and as a kid, I grew up with a bunch of norse fairy tales. Also note that Lexx is a Canadian *german* co-production, at least in the first three seasons and there was definite influence from the German designers, who presumably, would have had my germanic mythological referents close at hand. We do know that the german designers influenced the course of lexx through their drawings, so there may have been verbal percolation.On the other hand, there’s evidence that some of the elements, particularly the robot head, preceded the involvement of the Germans. The introduction of the rolling cluster lizard was late though, and Thodin or aspects of Thodin may have been within the right time period.
As for the reference to Kai possessing the memories of other Brunnen G, he never makes any such claim. Or at least not that I recall. If you’re thinking of a specific example quote it.
The only reference to holding memories of any who were Brunnen G were the predecessors in Supernova, who said ‘we hold many memories, including some who lived on Brunnis.’ The original Brunnis.
I’ve always taken this to mean that the Divine Order preceded the abandonment of Brunnis. I assumed that HDS killed scouting parties looking for a new world, or traders or diplomats or whatnot, from Brunnis.
I do not believe these memories were passed on and deposited by the original Insect. The Insect did not seem to leave its memories behind in the Predecessors. They have no idea what the Gigashadow is, or what it will mean to them. When Kai interrogates the ghost of HDS within himself, the ghost has no clue, and Kai is unable to access those memories. If the Insect had left memories behind of its kills, the game would be up. The predecessors would know, because at least one or more of them would have memories of originally being an insect.
My best guess is that HDS and the Divine Order emerged while the Brunnen G were still in the Dark Zone, was active when they crossed over into the Light Universe, and
expanded slowly or quickly over the next 10 millenia. How long does it take, anyway, to conquer 20,000 worlds?Of course, there is the comment by 790 in Rated: Lexx that the Divine Order had begun its expansion and that Brunnis 2 was the first big target. This would imply that the Divine Order is much younger than Brunnis 2,
and this creates a quandary in assessing the info from Supernova.My best guesses is that the Divine Order underwent periodic waves of expansion, rather than continuous. Or that for many thousands of years, it built slowly and at
the time of Kai’s death, was ready to move up orders of magnitude.Yeee-haaaaww! More good discussion! For simplicity, I’m going to separate the Valdron quotes and the DalekTek quotes into two groups, even though that places the posts out of order in some spots.
Valdron wrote:
quote
The fact remains that it couldn’t have been other memories seized from the fall of Brunnis 2. That HDS was destroyed when Kai took his memories back.
I tend to agree. Although one would think the memories would pass on to each successive DP in a compound interest effect, the way the DP that killed Kai talks in IWHS, it sounds like the DPs only keep memories specific to what they did:
“Predecessors, look into me. I was the one who took his life. I have his memories.”
Perhaps only the Insect Essence gets the “compound interest.”
quote
I too have noted the contradictory statement of Kai about the Brunnen G in Supernova. I assume that Kai’s reference has to be to the archaic brunnen g of the dark zone, before the move to the light universe, and before the shield.
Well, Zev is looking for a way to bring the dead back to life. Kai is correct in saying the Brunnen-G never did unlock that particular secret. I think his answer is in that context. But it is funny how close the wording is between Kai’s statement and the Master’s statement.
quote:
As for whether there was traffic beyond the shield after it went up. Did the Brunnen G ever leave after the shield, but before Kai.
I would have to say that there is no evidence whatsoever to support that contention. At best, we can only support such a notion by seeking ambiguity in statements which would seem to imply no traffic, and no communication.
There are two pieces of evidence already stated:
1. Stanley touches the memory of someone who died on Brunnis 5000 years earlier. The odds still favor that this person was Brunnen-G.
2. His Shadow has killed several Brunnen-G who lived on Brunnis. The only way that seems possible is if Brunnen-G travelled beyond the shield during the time of the Divine Order (perhaps going to Brunnis to die?) and were intercepted by His Shadow.
There may be no definitive answer on this subject, but I think there is more evidence to suggest they traveled some, than there is evidence to suggest they never left the confines of the shield.
quote
Isolationism was not a sudden thing. According to the MOC, by the time the Brunnen G had made it into the light universe, the insect wars were forgotten, man had fallen to warring with himself, and nobody cared about the Brunnen G. I think that the decision to build the barrier was a product of an isolationism that had been building for a while.
I’ll give you that. According to the Master, things happened in this order:
1. New home in the Light Universe.
2. Man fighting against man.
3. Brunnen-G turned inward.
4. They put up a great defensive shield.
5. Halted their aging process.However, just because they isolated themselves from other cultures, that doesn’t mean they never went beyond their shield for their own selfish purposes.
For example, perhaps the defensive shield needs a certain mineral to fuel it. Perhaps, at some point, this mineral was becoming scarce on Brunnis 2, but might be mined from another planet. Maybe… oh… Aurilium 4?
quote:
My best guess is that HDS and the Divine Order emerged while the Brunnen G were still in the Dark Zone, was active when they crossed over into the Light Universe, and
expanded slowly or quickly over the next 10 millenia.
I don’t think so. In Mantrid, the last surviving Insect tells us how he hid himself inside a small planetoid, and then waited. There’s no telling how long he had to wait.
When the Brunnen-G make their home in the Light Universe, there is no mention of the Divine Order, only man fighting against man. And in fact, the Divine Order is only seen to be “on the rise” when the New Born look out through the weak points in their shield. If the Divine Order was only “on the rise” around the time of Kai’s death, and the Brunnen-G put up a shield and conquered their mortality 10,000 years before that, it seems clear the Divine Order had not begun that far back.
quote
How long does it take, anyway, to conquer 20,000 worlds?
Obviously HDS did not have to conquer all 20,000. As Thodin tells us in IWHS, the Divine Order is a false religion. It is more of a religious cult, than a typical empire, centered around its mysterious leader with god-like powers. HDS probably expanded his influence through a combination of religious conversion, and outright conquering. The Divine Order would expand at an exponential rate (compound interest again). They are “on the rise” at the time of Kai’s death, and at the height of their power during Stan’s time.
quote
Of course, there is the comment by 790 in Rated: Lexx that the Divine Order had begun its expansion and that Brunnis 2 was the first big target.
Ooh, which dvd is that segment on? That is an interesting comment. Note, however, that the New Born look through the weak points and see the Divine Order “conquering and destroying planet-after-planet.” I’d be interested in hearing the exact 790 quote, as the “planet-after-planet” seems to be incompatible with Brunnis 2 being the first big target (unless it’s a “big target” in terms of importance and significance for HDS).
quote:
This would imply that the Divine Order is much younger than Brunnis 2,
and this creates a quandary in assessing the info from Supernova.
It sounds like Mantrid, Brigadoom, and Rated Lexx all imply that the Divine Order *is* much younger than Brunnis 2. This means that what we heard in Super Nova again indicates that Brunnen-G did occasionally travel beyond the shield.
DalekTek wrote:
quote
I always thought the idea of His Divine Shadow absorbing the memories of many Brunnen-G was a little odd, since he only killed one personally, but it’s the only logical explanation for how Kai received their memories. It is tatted time and again that he possesses the memories of many Brunnen-G killed in the destruction of Brunnis-2, and he could only have gotten them from the Divine Predecessor.
This actually tickles my memory. I do seem to recall something about Kai saying he had the memories of everyone killed on Brunnis 2, but I can’t remember where. Heck, it might have simply been something said on one of these boards. Can anybody source this? If he did say that, it shakes things up a bit.
quote
But there’s no plausible explanation for how a Brunnen-G could have died on Brunnis-1 5,000 standard years before the Fall of His Shadow.
Sure there is. He traveled beyond the shield and went to Brunnis. And remember, the location of Brunnis is not common knowledge. Even 790 doesn’t know where it is. Kai only knows because of what he learned in school on Brunnis 2. And note that when the Time Prophet mentions the memory catacombs on Brunnis, the guy doesn’t react with any surprise or curiosity. If he weren’t Brunnen-G, you’d think he’d say, “what the heck is that?”
But I will devil’s advocate: The Ostral-B know about the Brunnen-G (“you look Brunnen-G”), the prophecy (“could this be the fulfillment of the prophecy?”), and the Fractal Core (Stanley’s other code revealing a location beyond the reach of His Shadow). All this could indicate they visited Brunnis.
And on a side-note of devil’s advocacy, I now tend to think the shield cannot be easily turned off: The majority of Brunnen-G on Brunnis 2 invited HDS to come and kill them, but Brunnis 2’s defensive shield was destroyed by the Divine Order. If the shield could easily be turned off, then the Brunnen-G elders would have done so… to allow HDS to kill them with a minimum of fuss.
It is more likely their shield worked the same way Reform Planet shields worked: the shield remains up, but a code allows friendly vessels to pass through the shield without being destroyed.
I’ll have to go and get the quote from Rated: Lexx, it’s in the section dealing with Kai and his death.
In terms of the founding of the Divine Order and the settlement of Brunnis 2, the only common point of reference is the Insect wars.
After the Insect Wars the last insect buried itself, waited, and after a period of time took a human host and went on to found the Divine Order. After the Insect Wars, the Brunnen G sun continued to deteriorate, after a period of time they went to the light Universe, found everyone had forgotten them, man was warring with himself, settled on Brunnis 2 and built their shield.
There’s no way, in the context of the internal evidence to say one took place before the other. Thus, we cannot prove definitively based on the histories in Mantrid and Brigadoom that the Divine Order or Brunnis 2 was established first. Both took place a substantial period after the Insect Wars.
The only way out is by attempting to interpret external evidence. At this point, Sgt. Draino, no offense, but your logic becomes circular: The Divine Order is younger because it devoured travelers from Brunnis 2, the travellers must be from Brunnis 2 because they were devoured by the Divine order, which was younger. You’ve
based your argument on a series of prepositions which are rooted in each other, going round and round. It’s an easy trap to fall into.By contrast, my argument is that the chain of inferences from the statements made in Brigadoom seem to support the notion that there was no traffic or communication after the shield went up. It’s not conclusive, but the evidence as I see it tends to go that way, and within Brigadoom’s text, there’s nothing going the other way.
This leads us to the Supernova puzzle, and the assertion of the Predecessors that they have the memories of ‘those who lived on Brunnis.’
This statement betrays a potential inconsistency with the inferences drawn from Brigadoom.
What are the options:
1) The memories are post Brunnis 2
2) The memories are pre Brunnis 2Under option one, we have to reject the inferences made in Brigadoom, or at least set them aside. This supports, but does not conclusively establish that the Divine Order was established after Brunnis 2 was founded.
The Divine Order might well be older than Brunnis 2.Under option two, we do not disturb the inferences made in Brigadoom. But this requires assessing that the Divine Order
pre-existed Brunnis 2.I prefer the second option, as being the better means to fit everything together with the least violence or contradiction.
I don’t see the memory template as determinative of the issue one way or the other. The Time Prophet herself is not Brunnen G, not located on Brunnis or Brunnis 2, and was probably not particular to the Brunnen G culture. Other cultures or travellers consulted the time prophet. We know both the Divine Shadow and Vlad did so.
The Divine Shadow may have been accessing Kai’s memories. But Vlad was on her own.We cannot infer, simply from the visit of the prospector to the Time Prophet that he was Brunnen G. The prospector himself never
states that he was Brunnen G.The best evidence is that his memory record is in the Burst of Life place. Unfortunately, we are clearly shown in Supernova that it has been made by Poetman as a trap for the unwary. In my view, it is not conclusive. At best, its an inference, and as such it must be considered in light of other inferences. In my view, the inference ins inconsistent with verified facts and other inferences. Ergo I don’t think he’s Brunnen G.
Your argument is a merry go round, and mine, it seems is a house of cards. One more and we’ll have a theme park.
The Rated: Lexx statement might well be conclusive. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to go far enough. But that’s why I’m going to look it up and get the exact quote.
As a final note, Sgt. Draino, you are arguing that the Divine Order would have expanded exponentially upon founding. I’m not sure if that applies. On Earth, for instance, Islam expanded exponentially. Christianity had to slog for 1800 years to get where it is today. Historically, some Empires grew incredibly slowly, such as China, which took a couple of millenia. Russia emerged over a 700 or 800 year period.
The US reached its present borders in little more than a century. Alexanders empire was a single short lifetime. That’s just on one planet. The Light Universe is an incredibly big place. It’s an interesting argument you’ve made, but profoundly unprovable.It’s not a perfect hypothesis as I’ve said.
Rated: LexxOkay, I just got off the phone with John Dunsworth. *He* was the Voice of the Divine Shadow/Divine Predecessor who killed Kai in IWHS and Gigashadow, and the Game. So that
settles that.Valdron wrote:
quote
I’ll have to go and get the quote from Rated: Lexx, it’s in the section dealing with Kai and his death.
Found it. 790 says:
“When His Divine Shadow became powerful, and started to take over the Light Universe, one of the first planets he attacked was Brunnis 2, the Brunnen-G planet.”
Hmmm. This would definitely imply the Divine Order didn’t do a heck of a lot before Kai’s time. The New Born saw the Divine Order conquering and destroying planet-after-planet, but apparently the Divine Order had only just started doing that.
quote
There’s no way, in the context of the internal evidence to say one took place before the other. Thus, we cannot prove definitively based on the histories in Mantrid and Brigadoom that the Divine Order or Brunnis 2 was established first. Both took place a substantial period after the Insect Wars.
It is difficult to say for sure, certainly. But we can theorize on what is more or less likely, based on what we do know. We can see which way the scales are tipping.
quote:
The only way out is by attempting to interpret external evidence. At this point, Sgt. Draino, no offense, but your logic becomes circular: The Divine Order is younger because it devoured travelers from Brunnis 2, the travellers must be from Brunnis 2 because they were devoured by the Divine order, which was younger. You’ve
based your argument on a series of prepositions which are rooted in each other, going round and round. It’s an easy trap to fall into.
AH-HA! OH-HO! YOU STING ME!!! ppttt, just kidding.
My argument isn’t circular, because the first point (the Divine Order being younger than Brunnis 2) is not solely based on the second point (that the travelers must be from Brunnis 2).
The Divine Order is probably younger than Brunnis 2, because Brigadoom tells us it was “on the rise” during Kai’s time, and Rated Lexx tells us that Brunnis 2 was one of the first planets the Divine Order attacked.
The Brunnen-G killed by HDS, who originally lived on Brunnis, probably therefore came from Brunnis 2, because it seems unlikely the Divine Order was around 10,000+ years before Kai’s time, when the shields went up on Brunnis 2.
quote
By contrast, my argument is that the chain of inferences from the statements made in Brigadoom seem to support the notion that there was no traffic or communication after the shield went up. It’s not conclusive, but the evidence as I see it tends to go that way, and within Brigadoom’s text, there’s nothing going the other way.
In the spirit of fairness, I remembered a line which supports your theory of no traffic:
“Closed behind our mighty shield, beyond which none can fly.”
Sounds pretty definite. Of course, it also seems to fly in the face of the Super Nova info. Maybe one of the two sources was simply not being accurate, either on purpose, or by accident.
quote:
Other cultures or travellers consulted the time prophet. We know both the Divine Shadow and Vlad did so.
The Divine Shadow may have been accessing Kai’s memories. But Vlad was on her own.
HDS clearly got the TP’s location from Kai’s memory. Naturally this info would have been passed on to Vlad when she was sent on her mission. We actually DON’T see or hear of any other cultures visiting the Time Prophet.
quote
The best evidence is that his memory record is in the Burst of Life place. Unfortunately, we are clearly shown in Supernova that it has been made by Poetman as a trap for the unwary.
Actually, the Burst of Life place has NOT been made into a trap for the unwary. Poetman tries to trick everyone into going into the Love place, not the Burst of Life place. He tries to talk them OUT of going into any of the other rooms, because he’s only interested in propagating his seed.
quote
As a final note, Sgt. Draino, you are arguing that the Divine Order would have expanded exponentially upon founding. I’m not sure if that applies. On Earth, for instance, Islam expanded exponentially. Christianity had to slog for 1800 years to get where it is today.
Obviously there are few certainties when it comes to Lexx. We are dealing more in probabilities. Some religions are more aggressive than others. I see the Divine Order as being extremely… pro-active.
quote
The US reached its present borders in little more than a century. Alexanders empire was a single short lifetime. That’s just on one planet. The Light Universe is an incredibly big place. It’s an interesting argument you’ve made, but profoundly unprovable.
A man with god-like powers can take over a planet in 100 years. A planet lead by a man with god-like powers can take over another planet in a single day.
quote:
Okay, I just got off the phone with John Dunsworth. *He* was the Voice of the Divine Shadow/Divine Predecessor who killed Kai in IWHS and Gigashadow, and the Game. So that
settles that.
Hooray! Mystery solved! Cool. Now, for the next mystery…
What is John Dunsworth’s phone number?
Anyone? Anyone?
But seriously, Valdron, think we could get him to do a chat with us sometime?
[ 23-03-2002: Message edited by: sgtdraino ]
John Dunsworth, interesting guy. He ran the local casting agency that supplied actors to LEXX for the first few years, pretty much knows all the local people that have appeared in it off the top of his head.
I think he’s also done more separate roles than anyone else, specifically: 1) Voice of archaic HDS in IWHS, 2) Heretic Asteroid Commander in Gigashadow, 3) Voice of archaic HDS in Gigashadow, 4) Running man in Gigashadow, 5) Berf in 791, 6) Heretic Asteroid Commander flashback in Stan’s Trial, 7) Brigadoom immortal, 8) Old timer in Texx LEXX, 8) ATF Agent in Stan Down,
9) HDS in the Game, and 10) a role in Lyekka vs Japan.He’s an extremely nice person and very interesting, he’s been acting for about 35
years and he’s done a lot of cool stuff.
Unfortunately most of his roles in LEXX
tend to be small brief bits, so he didn’t
have a lot to say about them.As for the speed or progress of the Divine Order, I don’t know that I agree that it would proceed as explosively as you suggest. HDS did not manifest ‘godlike’ powers, so far as I know, there was effective immortality, possibly longevity of bodies, the memory stealing thing, and a few shadow tricks like walking around without a brain.
I mean, lets face it, being able to walk and talk with your brain removed is a pretty good party trick, but not a lot of material assistance in attempting to take over the Universe.
Looking at the really successful and long lived terrestrial empires, China, Rome, Russia, the US, their expansions seemed to follow patterns. Short bursts of radical expansion followed by long periods of quiescence and consolidation.
If HDS had nothing but time, I could see them playing a careful game, expanding gradually, forever consolidating, bursts and consolidation.
In short, in my view, its entirely possible that the Divine Order existed in some form before the migration to Brunnis.
790’s statement on first reading seems to suggest a recent wave of expansion 2000 years before. But it doesn’t say it was the first such wave, although that inference might be drawn. Nor does it give any background on the prior development. It may be consistent with 790 to say that the expansion referred to was only the latest in a series of them over a dozen millenia.
Alternately, 790 might be considered an unreliable narrator. Certainly, he is a biased and unreliable narrator injecting his personal views and prejudices into other aspects of 790. While he has no special reason to lie about this, we can’t be sure that he has a full complement of historical data, or cares about it. However, I don’t
think I need to go that far, his statements can be considered accurate within my wider theory.Essentially, Sgt. it seems to me that your
theory calls for disregarding at least some statements. It’s tempting to do so. But I think that a theory which most succesfully incorporates the most statements wins out.Hate to put a dampener on the lively dabate but here is why the insect wars must have been in BOTH universes.
The giga-shaddow can not cross borders as you recall when it did it collapsed the portal!
Shooting black sheets from your body is a pretty impressive power.
Few points:
10,000 years from Brigadoom.. who says that is literal? I’d think it more like a couple of thousand.. who would keep count that long, especially as they could barely remember their names (compare with Matthew 18 where Peter asks Jesus how if you should forgive a man 7 times, and Jesus says no, 70 times 7. It doesn’t mean 490 literally)
Marty Simon voiced brain 14, he was the voice that calls out “The Prophecy is upon us!” on the journey to the Lexx.
The shield around Brunnis 2 was impenetrable, from both directions. The Brunnen-G shut themselves off from the universe, they didn’t want to leave the planet, no longer wanted to see what was going on outside and sure as heck didn’t want anyone to come in, there was no code.
Brunnen-G may have been killed by a Shadow possesed individual long before the forming of the Divine Order, assuming that the events shown at the beginning of Mantrid occured before the erection of the shield.
Thodin knew about the Brunnen-G presumably because some records still existed of the Insect Wars and the Brunnen-G’s part in them. The Brunnen-G would have spent some time interacting with humans in the light zone after the Wars, both before the migration and before the shield was erected.
And finally, from my edited copy of the Bean Chat:
Okay, Paul and MM and I are to answer your dripping questions
I’ve got one… what universe did the insect wars take place in?
The Insect Wars took place in the Light Universe
thanks just what I wanted to hear! Interesting ideas but the thing about the HDS individual destroying the planet before the order is BS as:
1)they had divine order uniforms
2)Kai called him his shaddow (he already knew of the order)
3)he ordered kai to be sent to the bio-visir (Divine order institutution?)
4)although proto-blood was from the insect maybe insect technology really took off as when he saw the insect kai flew, it triggered a partial memory of his insect life and triggered innate insect knowlage sufficient to create insect bio-techThanks Cat, a few thoughts:
“Shooting black sheets from your body is a pretty impressive power.” But it may not have been an inherent shadow power, it may have been technological. Alternately, so what, anyone with a blackpak could do the same. Shooting bullets out of your navel might impress the locals, but you’re not going to be the new Pope.
“10,000 years from Brigadoom.. who says that is literal?” I’ve considered that. I more than suspect that they just threw in those big round numbers because it sounded impressive. But then, Paul’s partial to epic scale, so it may have been deliberate.
It may not have been well thought out, it may not have been literal. But it’s there,
and it’s clearly stated, and two references are made, one to 6000 and one to 10,000. After kicking it around, I decided I had no choice but to accept the numbers for their face value.“Brunnen-G may have been killed by a Shadow possesed individual long before the forming of the Divine Order,” The Gigashadow, referring to the first individual he took over says “And I became the first Divine Shadow…”
“Thodin knew about the Brunnen-G presumably because some records still existed of the Insect Wars and the Brunnen-G’s part in them. The Brunnen-G would have spent some time interacting with humans in the light zone after the Wars, both before the migration and before the shield was erected.”
I’ll agree with that, Stan was well aware of the Insect Wars long after Kai’s death 2008 years before. I suspect that the Insect
Wars and Brunnen G were well known in legend.
It’s also reasonable to assume that the Brunnen G would have sent scouting parties all over the Light Universe looking for their new home, and followed with embassies, trading delegations, whatnot. So, in all likelihood, they’re fairly well known.But here’s a mystery. Kai knew about the Prophecy because the Time Prophet told him.
HDS knew about the prophecy because he ate Kai and visited the Time Prophet. But Kai never got the chance to talk much to anyone
outside, so far as we know. I don’t think HDS was the kind of guy to let something like that slip out after a few beers, not if he took it seriously. And the HDS did take it seriously, after the Prophecy, they never left the Cluster.So how does Thodin know about the Prophecy?
As far as I’m concerned, the Time Prophet must have blabbed after the fact. I can just see desperate generals going “How can we stop the Divine Order?” and getting the
whole song and dance. Must have been right depressing.Here’s a true story. Back in 2000, Brian Downey came out to Keycon, a Convention in Winnipeg as a Guest of Honour. Anyway, there was a question and answer panel, so
I thought I’d throw in a geekboy question.“Did Thodin and Stan have any history, because they seemed to know each other personally, rather than simply by reputation in IWHS”
Brian said without hesitation, “Thodin was the courier that Stan was deputy backup for. Stan’s giving out the codes almost wrecked Thodin’s career, guilt by association.”
Wow, cool or what? Then, in his next breath
he said “You realize, I just made that up.”The truth of it is that we can’t be sure just how much of it they thought through, or what parts. Some of this stuff they’d had in mind as early as 1993. Some of it they just pulled out of their butts on the day of shooting. Some of it, heck, some of it, they just don’t have a clue, and if you ask, you get wild guesses or sudden inspiration.
So, I think we’ve taken this debate as far as it can go. Nothing left for you to do, Sgt. Draino, but go ahead and ask Lex G when he shows up in chat. Maybe he’s got the
answer and its all been worked out. Or maybe he’ll pull a monkey out of his butt and give you an answer that isn’t a fraction as carefully thought out as we’ve been doing. But it’ll be an answer.Time to knock a few more dents
1. It was his shaddow (kai refers to by name)
2. He has the HDS memory sucking powers
3. He was taken to a biovisir that uses protoblood, threfore gigashaddow so was the insect
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