His Divine Shadow
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Does His Divine Shadow make a good villain?
Is His Shadow still alive?
What exactly was the relationship between His Shadow and Mantrid?
What exactly was the nature of His Shadow and the Insect Civilization?
Will there be another Insect War?
There seems to be a lot of debate on these topics, lately, so I created a new area for discussion.
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Lee P. Sherman, code name DalekTek790
Whovian, Froudian, Lexxian, etc.I contend to all intents and purposes, HDS is a villan of the past. I really hope he stays there. Perhaps they could give us an occasional trip down memory lane via Stan or Xev. There are oodles of other kinds of evil our intrepid crew could be pitted against. One thing that sets Lexx apart is that the crew have no agenda other than just finding someplace to live.
Hmm…Someone suggested that the insects in the Lexx could mutate into The insects. It seems like my original butterfly suggestion
was a good one. I think thats a great idea.
Time repeats itself. I hope so. Maybe this is some kind of paradox?
Maybe the time prophet is the last of the race that created it? Neverthless I think we need some kind of his Shadow. As I probably have said before before the insect essence can be extracted from the host just like in the first episode. I could be everywhere on the Lexx. If it does I really don’t hope Mantrid is still a part of it. Under all circumstances Mantrids essence was on Fire and there was no sign of the insect within him.They came out of nowhere in the Neoproterozoic Period of planet Earth. Nothing on the planet was that complex, that organized, that devoted to the perpetuation of their existence. Their ravaging of the primæval biome brought about the dawn of the Paleozoic Era. For over a hundred thousand millennia they dominated the land, the seas, and the air. Though their reign was ended by the development of prochordates into vertibrate forms, they live on, outnumbering any other phylum of terrestrial life. They are the insects.
But in the Light Zone, the Insects fared much better. Their domination was on an interplanetary scale.
They harnessed the power of nanotechnology to grow to massive sizes and live for thousands of years. The fluid that coursed through their veins was the same proto-blood that reanimated Kai and Yottskry. They could exist outside their chitinous forms, and transfer their essence to new bodies adapted for different tasks. They could bend the very fabric of time-space to find new worlds to subgigate.
But when they opened a fractal core to a new and uncertain universe, they opened Pandora’s box. For a new race existed in the Dark Zone, one equally experienced in space travel and with an even greater lust for conquest: the humans.
Led by a warrior sub-race known as the Brunnen-G, humanity brutally slaughtered the Insect civilization, colonizing their worlds and stealing their technology. When the Great Insect War was over, not a single Insect could be seen traversing the stars.
But one lived on. He had seen his race, his planet, and everything he held dear torn to pieces by the alien race.
The humans must die.His Divine Shadow is the only truly menacing villain in the whole of “Lexx,” and everything points to him still being alive. To quote the exact words of the Time Prophet: “As you know, time has a beginning, and an end, and then time begins again, and I have seen that in the future-past the power of the Divine Order will destroy Brunnis-2, but the last Divine Shadow will die at the hands of a Brunnen-G. It has happened before, it will happen again.” The prophecy specifically states that the LAST Divine Shadow will be killed by a Brunnen-G (presumably Kai), so, regardless of what Kai and Stanley and Zev thought in “Lexx 1.1,” and “1.4” it remains unfulfilled. That was NOT the last. Here is a list of the Divine Shadows and their vanquishers:
His Divine Shadow-Kai
The Yottskry Shadow-Spontaneously disjointed
The Giga Shadow-Squish
The Kai Shadow-Spontaneously disjointed
The Larval Shadow-Vigo
The Mantrid Shadow-ZevSo, unless the prophecy is flawed, the last Divine Shadow is something we haven’t seen yet. The essence of His Shadow must have disjointed from Mantrid before Zev crushed the box. Besides, Lex Gigeroff himself said after the end of season 2 that the Insects are not extinct, and it would be a bad move to eliminate the enemy character. The essence is still somewhere, waiting. As I see it, there are three logical possibilities.
1. The essence stayed in the Light Zone, and in the 4,333 years since its big crunch it has initiated a big bang and now rules a newly created universe.
2. The essence possessed the Lexx, and is still there gaining strength. Or, the most likely scenerio…
3. The essence found a host on Fire, and is the unseen King of a new Divine Order on the planet, planning to destroy the Lexx crew before taking over the universe.
The butterfly in “The End of the Universe” is only symbolic. Life goes on.
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Lee P. Sherman, code name DalekTek790
Whovian, Froudian, Lexxian, etc.Even if his Shadow is dead it would be interesting to have a look at time before the humans. To see his Shadow before the fall of his race. What could he(?) have been like? It could be interesting to see it from
HIS point of wiev. After all he could have been a really nice guy…um…bug in the start untill the destruction of the insects
drove him mad. After all he was born in the light zone while the humans where the children of the dark universe of destruction… I really hope we haven’t seen the last of him. Such a powerfull creature should not be crushed like a…um…insect under a boot while screaming like a little child. That sucked. The reason I personally
wan’t him back is that we need some
ANSWERS(!!!)to for example those questions
DalekTek790 has written.Whoa, Dalek, that opening paragraph belongs in the prologue of a movie(w/Kai narrating [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img])! I liked HDS because he was so inhuman. I mean, when you battle a human(oid) villain, you have stuff in common; it’s easier to find motivations, drives, weaknesses. But, insects are so utterly NOT human or mammalian in any way. I mean, even birds and fish are easier to savvy than insects. So, to have an insect walking around with all that intelligence and power, in human form, just brings the creep factor up to ten for me.
I thought Mantrid and HDS had a lackey-overlord relationship; he was a bio-vizier who worked for HDS. But, obviously he was a dangerous bio-vizier, since HDS exiled him. He was probably too dangerous to have full autonomy but too useful to destroy. Mantrid’s getting the essence seemed to be a simple mistake caused by Vigo’s not really knowing how to transfer Mantrid’s essence into the vessel. Is His Divine Creepiness still about? I sincerely hope so.
The nature of HDS and the Insect civilization are a mystery I hope the Beans will clear up someday; hopefully, in a stunning full length retrospective of the Insect Wars!(hey, if Lucas can do it, why not the Beans? [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]) It just seems that so much emphasis was placed on the cycles of time and Kai’s destroying the insect civilization, that a simple boot crush, while ironic, was pretty anticlimactic.
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“Time begins then time ends, and then time begins once again.”Well the prophecy could have been fullfilled in Giga-shadow when the last ACTUAL His Shadow was killed. After all the insect in Mantrid was an insect and not his Shadow. Every divine predecessor was a HDS
and Kai may not have killed the essence but he ended his Shadows ORDER. Or do the other
beings posseded by him (Mantrid, the larvae etc.)count as HSD’s as well? All we can do is wait and see.Here are my views on insects
1) His shadow is dead. Insects were tough, but still mortal. Besides, only a small fragment of the original essence remained. When he merged with mantrid.
2)Mantrid’s soul was completely connected with the insect essence fragment. When mantrid finally died, the insect went too.
3)The insects evolved alongside humans in the dark zone. They traveled in pod like societies and kept order among themselves by trading essences. They fed off of green planets or ice asteroids, and could live for thousands of years and can grow to the size of a planet.
4)The Brunnen-G had the technology to stabilize collapsing stars, so they may also have had the technology to destabilize them. They would lure hostile insects near stars, which would then supernovea killing the insect. The result [i] “was A vastly aged universe, with many worlds either vaporized or scorched barren. A huge amount of background radiation, excessive electromagnetic and long wave stuff bouncing around. Much less habitable for humans or electronic civilisation. A diminished human population. And for the Brunnen G, a sun that now requires maintenance to keep from blowing.” [i] – Taken from WordWrites Lexxplorations at
[url=http://www.wordwrights.co.uk/lexx/lexxplorations.html]http://www.wordwrights.co.uk/lexx/lexxplorations.html[/url](In the darrow files section of this site, there is a large document of the topic of insects, but you may have to copy the page a word proccessor because of a glitch in the site which forwards it after 5 seconds)
5) I won’t put it beyond the beans to start another insect war.
6)It’s just a show. A cool show, but still, just a show. “Insects” never existed, and hopefully, never will.
And that’s my view on planet sized space insects (can’t believe I just wrote that)
Dead or not…I don’t think anyone can ever create a villain as evil as him again.
Insects never excisted? Of course they do.
I am one of them…ahahahaHAHAHA!!!…ahem.Nox, I’m completly with you on that point. He truly was the ultimate villain.
And as you said, the prophesy said that Kai would destroy the Divine ORDER, it didn’t mention the actual HS himself. In that case the insect essence really could be dead.
But if that meant that he was going to be the one the kill the very last of the insects, then it isn’t over yet. ‘Couse it wasn’t Kai that killed the GigaShadow (it was Squish), neither did he kill Mantrid (if he counts as a HD) that was Xev.
And with the knowledge that the essence still lives (as Paul has said) and the “reawakened” Mantrid, which should now be on Earth, didn’t show any signs of essence (it still wouldn’t have survived his death… either of them) i surmise that the essence could only be hiding in Lexx. Xev could also be and option but if that were the case I suspect that we would have noticed be now. If it is in Lexx, on the other hand, it haven’t had a chance to do anything anyway, ‘couse of the food problem…
well, I could continue with my conspiracy theories forever but unfortunatly the living do get stressed… and tired (I haven’t slept for 2 days, I’m trying to get a proper sleep-rythm. With that I mean that I’m trying to sleep during the nights not during the days… since people around me seems to be bothered by it.)
but you’ll hear more from me, rest assured…
(Now I know where you live Dalek, I’ve wondered a little about that. Oops, that almost sounded like a threat…)
The butterfly we saw…that means there are life on the Lexx.It’s as big as Manhattan. There are lots of options for nasty surprises. Think of squish. There could be an entire herd of cluster lizards running around. And after 4000 years…
I have seven things to say, here:
1. I don’t think that butterfly had any PHYSICAL meaning. The butterfly is a symbol of rebirth.
2. There is evidently some confusion over what the Time Prophet said. I have a verbatim transcript of her exact words in the third paragraph of my really long post.
3. Is it revealed at the end of the third season that Mantrid’s human essence is still alive? I have not seen the rest of the season and have not read about it, but I have been formulating a theory and I was under the impression the person they met in K-Town was not Mantrid, only one of his clones.
4. From all the speculation, I assume that His Shadow does not appear in the last episode of the third season. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img] I think some people here from Canada or the U.K. have seen the end.
6. Where people live is on the left side. I assume the aspiring/committed dealie is based on number of posts.
7. The wheel doth turn.
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Lee P. Sherman, code name DalekTek790
Whovian, Froudian, Lexxian, etc.Whatever! Who cares about that butterfly anyway?! Anyway I still think it could be interesting if there where life on the Lex…
“His Shadow’s Order will be destroyed at the hands of the Last Brunnen-G.” Okay, I’ll buy it if the Time Prophet said it. But, if only an Order is destroyed, that doesn’t mean necessarily that all the adherents to the Order have been destroyed. We know it’s been stated the ‘Order’ would be destroyed. Does it state anywhere that the insects would be destroyed, too; like made extinct?
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“Time begins then time ends, and then time begins once again.”Your right!!! The profecy dosent say anything about the insects!!! They can still come back somehow!!! (They dont say that Giggashadow was the last one ider)
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I am the crusader“…the power of the Divine ORDER will destroy Brunnis-2, but the last Divine SHADOW will die at the hands of a Brunnen-G.”
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“Exterminate!” -Dalek warrior, “The Daleks”: Episode 4-“The Ambush”
“Feel the power of the dark Crystal!” -skekTek the Scientist, “The Dark Crystal”
“I will love you forever!” -drone 790, “Lexx 1.1: I Worship His Shadow”
The prophesy does NOT say that the last Divine Shadow will be killed by Kai or that the last insect will!!!
It only says that the divine order will be destroyed IN the hands of the Brunnen-G!
That means that Kai will doe something that destroys the Divine order!!!
The baby clusterlizzerd was throwen in to the Giggashadow by Kai!!!
So thats it, and thats that!!!
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I am the crusaderWhat I posted are the Time Prophet’s exact words (“Shadow,” not “Order” or “Insect”). If you’ll watch “Lexx 1.4: The Giga Shadow” that’s what she says! In “Brigadoom” the words are not the same, but since that is a recreation I see it as less accurate than the original source.
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Lee P. Sherman, code name DalekTek790
Whovian, Froudian, Lexxian, etc.[This message has been edited by DalekTek790 (edited 01-21-2001).]
[This message has been edited by DalekTek790 (edited 01-21-2001).]
“I passed my essence, my soul, my intelligence, my everything into a human host. As the last surviving Insect, I knew that I would never be able to defeat the humans. But if I possessed a human body, I thought perhaps I could use humans to defeat themselves. I became His Divine Shadow, the most powerful ruler in the two universes. My power over humanity grew as I passed my essence down through generation after generation. My Insect body also grew in strength; fed by human flesh gathered from 20,000 unsuspecting planets all unknowingly enslaved to their enemy.
But my order was destroyed by Kai, the last of the Brunnen G. My prematurely reborn body was killed by the LEXX, the most powerful weapon of destruction ever built.
Kai crushed the brain of my last human host, but he did not kill me, as I still live on. But he does not know that I live… through him.”
Okay, this is quoted from the horse’s mouth; from the insect essence itself, speaking at the beginning of “Mantrid.” It clearly says ‘order.’ And, it clearly refers to the human host that was HDS. So, I’m thinking we’re splitting hairs on this. It was clearly the last insect that burrowed into that planetoid. It passed its essence into Rock Hound. HDS comes about and the essence is passed down. Now, I have to ponder this: Kai can’t take the key to the Lexx because a living key must pass to a living host. But, the essence can pass to the nonliving? Or, is what’s left of Kai’s brain enough for it to survive? Then, again, this essence isn’t actually a ‘living’ thing, like humans, plants, or aliens, is it? Because, I believe it also said at one point that it passed ‘some’ of its essence. Wouldn’t that imply it could piecemeal its essence around? Clearly this essence inhabited both the GigaShadow and Kai, at the same time! Kai picked up some of the essence when he smushed the brain and the GigaShadow got some of the essence from Yottskry. So, this obviously convoluted reasoning leaves me with the Order destroyed, HDS killed(body and brain), and the essence…? Mutated when Vigo did the transfer of Mantrid’s life force into the vessel? Perhaps, part of it still on the planetoid? Either way, the planetoid was destroyed when the Light Universe was destroyed and Xev stomped on what was left of the Mantrid-vessel. So, unless the Beans pull a Bug Ex Machina, no more Divine Shadow. Bummer. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
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“Time begins then time ends, and then time begins once again.”[This message has been edited by BlackCloud (edited 01-22-2001).]
Well…the beans have always found a way.
Just think of Kai. We never knew how the essence passed into him. But whatever. I have nothing against that the bug is dead.
But…sigh…it was an utterly low death he got. Just think of it. You used to rule all humans and destroy planets as you liked.
People would happily die for you. They worshipped you. And you have this cool voice and even cooler clothing! Yeah! Then your brain is eaten by a lizard and you are locked inside a little box with a gibbering maniac. Of course it helps to detroy a universe but only because of your annoying room-mate. Then you get crushed under a boot-heel while the other bloke takes all the honor. Poor guy…um…bug.
quote:
Originally posted by BlackCloud:
[b]Now, I have to ponder this: Kai can’t take the key to the Lexx because a living key must pass to a living host. But, the essence can pass to the nonliving? Or, is what’s left of Kai’s brain enough for it to survive? Then, again, this essence isn’t actually a ‘living’ thing, like humans, plants, or aliens, is it? Because, I believe it also said at one point that it passed ‘some’ of its essence. Wouldn’t that imply it could piecemeal its essence around? Clearly this essence inhabited both the GigaShadow and Kai, at the same time! Kai picked up some of the essence when he smushed the brain and the GigaShadow got some of the essence from Yottskry. So, this obviously convoluted reasoning leaves me with the Order destroyed, HDS killed(body and brain), and the essence…? Mutated when Vigo did the transfer of Mantrid’s life force into the vessel? Perhaps, part of it still on the planetoid? Either way, the planetoid was destroyed when the Light Universe was destroyed and Xev stomped on what was left of the Mantrid-vessel. So, unless the Beans pull a Bug Ex Machina, no more Divine Shadow. Bummer. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img][/b]
HDS has, it seems, always been able to distribute small chunks of His essence. In IWHS, f’rinstance, some of His essence is used to control his body on the LEXX, while also remaining in the brain he removed.
Also, Kai states in “Mantrid” that he only received a small part of HDS’ essence, so that he was not actually the next incarnation of HDS, but received “His agenda, the creation of a living insect (or words to that effect).” Which means that only a fraction of HDS’ essence was passed on to the Giga Shadow’s offspring (which is never considered in the episode to be another insect manifestation of HDS, but merely another living insect). Since the insect was still living and attempting to kill *after* the transference, there had to be some fraction of insect essence remaining in the insect in question, meaning that Mantrid absorbed an even *smaller* fraction of said essence. HDS in all of His incarnations, regarded Himself as an insect cloaked in human form, retaining His sense of Self. Mantrid, conversely, considers himself to be a completely new being, part human, part machine and part insect, perhaps due to the relatively small amount of insect essence he has inherited through the transference (if you compare the visuals of Mantrid’s essence to the essence emanating from the insect’s organ, they’re about equal in amount, giving the MantridBot about 50-50 shares of both).
So, from what I can gather, the being known as HDS is dead. Most of the essence that comprised His being has been destroyed by the time the Mantridbot leaves his planet and kills Vigo. The beings that contained small portions of His essence can’t really be considered incarnations of HDS, since they resemble more closely the body that the crew battled on the LEXX in IWHS: flesh machines used to further His agenda. Kai, being dead, is easily controlled by the small amount of essence he receives, and the insect, being dormant and lacking *any* essence is easily controlled as well. Mantrid becomes a combination of insect and human because he is alive, and his own essence is vital in asserting his own identity, rather than becoming a mere host. Note that in IWHS that Lex’s character, though not cleansed and still alive, is able to receive the total portion of HDS’ essence, and HDS is only *slightly* altered under the influence of Lex’s character’s essence. He still retains his concept of Self as HDS, while Mantrid, who only receives a portion, does not.
But, as Dennis Miller says, “That’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.”–Aleck
This is how I think the series should end…
( A human body lies among the debris of the former bridge of Lexx. He is badly hurt.
His black eyes open when someone enters- Kai)HDS: Kai…
Kai: Kai,last of the Brunnen-G.
HDS: You should be dead.
Kai: I am. And so should you.
HDS: You must be the prophecy.
Kai: I am. And now it must be my priority to end it. Die last of the insects. (Fires his blade into HDS’ heart.
HDS: No…( an insect of black essence appears above the body screaming in pain and then it slowly fades away.)But unfurtunely it won’t…sob.
(Unless Mantrids twin sister builds a
revive-an-insect-essence-machine)So, check it out; I’m listening to this new “Lexx” CD and Kai comes on saying, “The Divine order has been destroyed and Mantrid is not part of it.” So, I guess His Divine Shadow has truly left the building! (how I missed this line before, I don’t know)
And, I can definitely see Dieter Laser pulling off a twin sister. (the man is simply brilliant! [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img])——————
“Time begins then time ends, and then time begins once again.”[This message has been edited by BlackCloud (edited 01-25-2001).]
I posted that line before in a nother topic but noone semed to take anynotise to it!!!
Owell, I hope I can get the CD in sweden!!!
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I am the crusaderAren’t we a bit weird to talk about a fictional characther as if he was alive?
About the cicle of time…it might take while. I think Kai said it would take at least a billion years befire the next big bang. ( Am I the only one to think it’s a
lame name? The birth of an entire universe…and what do we call it? BIG BANG!) Well if Donovan said the insect’s wherent exctinct yet…we might not get HDS back, but we MIGHT get another even MORE creepy fella. But somehow I think he may come back…the actors in Brigadoom called Kai the most important person of all.
There MUST be more to it…I just wan’t his Shadow back for ONE reason. That I simply
COULDN’T TAKE to see the last scene in series 2. ( “I destroyed a universe!”)
THAT was once the most powerfull ruler in the 2 universes?! Aaaaaaargh!
quote[quote]HDS has, it seems, always been able to distribute small chunks of His essence. In IWHS, f’rinstance, some of His essence is used to control his body on the LEXX, while also remaining in the brain he removed.[/quote]
Well.. in this instance the ‘shadow essence’ took complete control of the body. Like all the other predecessors, the brain left behind at the cluster did not contain the insect essence, but after Kai lopped the top of His Shadow’s head off, the essence escaped the Lexx before it could fully enter the fractal core and returned to the Cluster where it reinhabited the brain.
quote:
Originally posted by crusader:
[b]I posted that line before in a nother topic but noone semed to take anynotise to it!!![/b]
Oh, I’m sorry sweetie, I must have missed it! Runnin’ on three cylinders, it’s bound to happen. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Well, if you can’t find it in Sweden, we’ll have to scare you up a copy here. (uh, the coding the same between here (US) and Sweden?)
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“Time begins then time ends, and then time begins once again.”On CD it is!!! I orderd the Final Fantasy VIII soundtrack from USA that they had gothen from Japan and it works fin!!!
(I used my dads creditcard but sinse he herd about risks on the net he wont let me by anything els thruw the net)
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I am the crusaderNow that I have seen the third season, I have come to see His Divine Shadow in a different light. He is a great character, a symbol of [i]Lexx[/i]’s golden age. [i]I Worship His Shadow[/i] and [i]The Giga Shadow[/i] are powerful allegories parallelling religious cultism and pedagogery that has existed and continues to exist on Earth. His Divine Shadow isn’t God, he’s someone pretending to be God.
Prince, on the other hand, [i]is[/i] the Devil, a shocking plot twist that seems to take away from His Shadow’s importance in the previous seasons, and implies (however much the creators try to tiptoe around the subject) the existance of an actual supreme deity in the [i]Lexx[/i] universe. In other words, the metaphysical elements of the third season tears down the pseudometaphysical elements in the Divine Shadow episodes and [i]Woz[/i]. Now I worry that Prince will dominate the fourth season, a bad thing for [i]Lexx[/i].
His Shadow is a much better villain than Mantrid or Prince. Prince is the ultimate evil, and Mantrid is just nuts. But there is a bit of sympathy in His Shadow. There is a human element to him that makes him a more believable and more powerful figure. He’s a mortal who tried to be God, but fell short. He’s a victim who became a victimizer so slowly he never realized it. His Shadow in itself was never that evil, until the essence passed into the body of an uncleansed human. It was humanity that began and ended his crusade.
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Lee P. Sherman, code name DalekTek790
Whovian, Froudian, Lexxian, etc.I think it’s worse than that Dalek. I don’t actually think that Prince was the Devil. Personally I think he took on the role of God.
(oohhhh, I’m gonna get in trouble for that 🙂
Prince was not all evil, sure he hated water, but there was a purpose in the stuff he did.
Also, if he was the Devil, who was his opposite? All the silly people of water (sexy though they might have been) were not ruled or guided by anyone ‘good’
The idea that Prince is God (or at least [b][i]A[/i][/b] god) fits VERY well in my opinion.
The alternative is that he was a very clever minor deity 🙂
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[img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/sad-images/sad-sig.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
[b]But there is a bit of sympathy in His Shadow. There is a human element to him that makes him a more believable and more powerful figure. He’s a mortal who tried to be God, but fell short. He’s a victim who became a victimizer so slowly he never realized it. His Shadow in itself was never that evil, until the essence passed into the body of an uncleansed human. It was humanity that began and ended his crusade.
[/b]
Disagree, disagree, disagree. Couldn’t disagree more. HDS is *anti*-human. HDS is an essence that passes from host to host, building up his resources until he/it can destroy all of humanity. His rule was based in duplicity from the start, and it was only the human elements left over from the last uncleansed host that allowed him to slip up and be defeated. HDS is not a tragic figure in the least. What evidence is there to show that HDS changed his position from victim to victimizer? 2000 years before IWHS’ time-frame, he was just as duplicitous and vehement in his destruction as he is when the action at hand takes place, in his wanton destruction of Brunnis-2 and assassination of Kai. His actions after killing Kai are despicable and are based only in vengeance and an arrogant belief in his own superiority over the humanoid residents of this planet.
Prince, on the other hand, is just a guy with a job. It is his duty to act in the manner he does, and perform the actions he does (keeping in line with the original concept of Satan, as a figure that does JHVH’s dirty work). He doesn’t know why he does what he does, where he came from, or who he really is. He is just doing what he is supposed to do, to keep things in balance. His innate desire to destroy Water is hard-wired within him, and fuels his existence. It isn’t until the unexpected arrival of the LEXX that he finds that he is *able* to destroy Water, which throws the balance of power out of whack. If Water had been destroyed by Stan early on, he would have *had* to destroy Fire, to keep the balance right, and would have been freed, but in victory rather than defeat. Either way, he ends up being freed, but the latter way allows him the satisfaction of knowing that he destroyed his opponent.
At any rate, Prince may be a bad m.f., but he ain’t despicably evil in that he retains more “humanity,” showing charm, desires, emotions, etc. HDS is completely inhuman, and is cold and calculating in his reign of destruction, and is closer to what is considered “evil” than Prince, an angel doing his job, could ever be.
But, then, Satan and I have an understanding. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by Aleck:
[b] Disagree, disagree, disagree. Couldn’t disagree more. HDS is *anti*-human. At any rate, Prince may be a bad m.f., but he ain’t despicably evil in that he retains more “humanity,” showing charm, desires, emotions, etc. HDS is completely inhuman, and is cold and calculating in his reign of destruction, and is closer to what is considered “evil” than Prince, an angel doing his job, could ever be.But, then, Satan and I have an understanding. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
–Aleck[/b]
i agree with aleck, prince is more consistant with the charming fallen angel…i think of hds, and maybe all dictators as the demiurge of the gnostics;he thinks he is god, and has many powers in the material world,but he is misled and, more dangerously, misleading
I have to agree with Aleck and FX too.
In writing my fan fics, HDS doesn’t screw up. It’s the humans under him that mess up time to time. Why do I write it like that? Because he’s evil, and to get to the point where we see him in IWHS, he had to get things right. A leader isn’t powerful for 2,000+ years by making mistakes all the time. It was the uncleansed human brain that screwed up in IWHS. To err is human…blah blah.
Prince is just some guy, you know? He’s good with pain.
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“…we will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what normal is anyway.”
quote:
Originally posted by trillian:
[b]It was the uncleansed human brain that screwed up in IWHS.[/b]
That’s what I’ve been saying. A truly evil person is someone who knows they’re doing wrong, yet does it anyway (like Mantrid and Prince). His Shadow saw himself as just carrying out justice.
You can really feel for him in [i]Mantrid[/i]. The humans destroyed his home, his people, and everything he heald dear. To him, they were an evil race. It’s like the Klingons, or the Ice Warriors. All you see of them (at first) are hostile warriors, but they have a civilization composed largely of good non-violent people. Still, when you saw the Klingons in the original [i]Star Trek[/i] you didn’t imagine Worf or Torres.
“I’ve never trusted a Klingon, and I never will. I cannot forgive them for the death of my son”
-Captain Kirk, [i]Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country[/i]In that movie the Klingons turn out to be predominantly good, but Kirk hates them because the ones he was exposed to before were evil. His Shadow thought the same way about humans. They killed his people, they should die. Never mind the ones who did kill his people were dead and had different value systems from most of the humans in the Light Zone.
Besides, he didn’t directly kill humans (for the most part), he exploited the gullibility and their hatred that was already there to make humans kill humans. It could be reasoned that if they’re stupid enough to follow him, they deserve to die.
Prince, on the other hand, is pure evil. There’s no humanity, no justice. He tries to break the rules of the Universe to better suit himself. He sends good people to Fire out of spite, and sends bad people to Water out of friendship. And he knows what he’s doing is wrong. That’s a truly evil person.
——————
Lee P. Sherman, code name DalekTek790
Whovian, Froudian, Lexxian, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
[b]You can really feel for him in [i]Mantrid[/i]. The humans destroyed his home, his people, and everything he heald dear.[/b]
No, he was merely the last survivor of the Insect Wars. It isn’t made clear whether the insects were the agressors or the humans. To assume that he is a victim here is assuming too much. However, as the insect essence (and seeing as how insects operate as a collective, we can safely assume that this viewpoint is not merely the isolated one of HDS) is markedly anti-human, we can deduce that the insects were the villains of the piece, and the agressors. As Mantrid stated, being part insect made him want to kill all humans. *Not* being the next Divine Shadow. Also, evil cannot be merely reduced to knowing that what you’re doing is wrong. Great evil has taken place by people convinced that what they’re doing is *right*. But, then, your concept of evil and mine are *never* going to jibe.
quote:
[b]Besides, he didn’t directly kill humans (for the most part), he exploited the gullibility and their hatred that was already there to make humans kill humans. It could be reasoned that if they’re stupid enough to follow him, they deserve to die.
[/b]
This is like saying that because Hitler never directly killed anyone, and was acting on what his judgement determined was “right,” that he was not an evil person. This lessens the severity of the atrocities that went on in the name of HDS, which shouldn’t be understated.
quote[quote][b]Prince, on the other hand, is pure evil. There’s no humanity, no justice. He tries to break the rules of the Universe to better suit himself. He sends good people to Fire out of spite, and sends bad people to Water out of friendship. And he knows what he’s doing is wrong. That’s a truly evil person.[/b][/quote]
No, Prince cannot help who he is. He is carrying out the job that he was created for. To say that he lacks humanity (which would make him what…insectile?) means that he lacks a sense of right and wrong, which contradicts your implication that he has a choice in the matter.
He didn’t send anyone anywhere in Season 3, to Fire or to Water. They condemned themselves to their fate. Stan sent himself to Fire because he truly believed himself to be unworthy of a better afterlife. Fifi sent himself to Water because he never believed that he belonged there. One could argue that the “girls” of Girltown were on Fire because the guilt that had been instilled in them in the before-life allowed them to believe that this was where they belonged. As Prince pretty much said, it’s not a perfect system, and mistakes are made.…But then, it wasn’t *Prince* that devised the system, and it’s not he that sentences anyone to their fate. He just does his job, and he’s good with pain. He advocates doing the “wrong” thing, because it’s the perfect thing to do, in his book.
–Aleck
Dalektek, the point of the thread got lost somewhere in your brain or mine.
I’m confused. Do you think HDS is evil or not? At one point you say he is the eviliest villian, but then a couple of posts later, you make it seem like your argument is that he is just trying to do his job and Prince is far more evil…erm, so what’s your stance?
And my uncleansed brain part…I was trying to make the point that the pure evil insect essence is what kept an empire of evil and unjust laws going. When the human flavor was added is what hastened plans, made things go wrong, because they didn’t have the same agenda.
Insect Essence = destroy all human kind.
Human = my own agenda (whatever that may be)——————
“…we will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what normal is anyway.”Most of this thread is from before I saw [i]The Beach[/i] and [i]Heaven and Hell[/i], so I didn’t know who Prince really was.
I’m not saying His Divine Shadow is not evil, he’s just not as evil as some other characters. The more evil a villain is doesn’t always mean the better he is. I think His Shadow is the best enemy on [i]Lexx[/i] because his character is the most complex. Prince is just evil itself, and there’s not much real character. Mantrid has more dimension than Prince, but sometimes he’s too hard to take seriously, and he only became a major figure by standing on His Shadow’s shoulders. The being that destroyed the Light Zone wasn’t just Mantrid, he was half (or at least part) Divine Shadow.
His Divine Shadow has a Darth Vader appeal. An antagonist that is a powerful and organized evil. Yet, even in his darkest moments, there’s some humanity there.
——————
Lee P. Sherman, code name DalekTek790
Whovian, Froudian, Lexxian, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
[b]The being that destroyed the Light Zone wasn’t just Mantrid, he was half (or at least part) Divine Shadow.[/b]
Mantrid is insectile only in a very slight part. He is not part HDS, as HDS was a distinct entity and personality, inasmuch as an insect can be said to have personality. Mantrid only received part of what essence Kai possessed, which was small to begin with. Kai denies that he was HDS, only that he received HDS’ agenda. The essence was still majorly present in the offspring after the essence-transferring organ was removed, as the insect was still alive and attempting to kill whatever humans were present. Mantrid only received enough insect essence to have his already volatile personality imprinted with the desire to kill all of humanity. He is not half, or part HDS. He is only very slightly part insect, and as he said, a new lifeform altogether.
quote:
[b]His Divine Shadow has a Darth Vader appeal. An antagonist that is a powerful and organized evil. Yet, even in his darkest moments, there’s some humanity there.
[/b]
No, there’s not. HDS is absolutely anti-human. Darth Vader is, after all, a human, so there can obviously be a humanity there, but HDS is all insect essence residing (until that last incarnation) in a cleansed shell of a human host. The only humanity present is in the body shape. HDS is cold, calculating, and impassionate except in regarding his own survival. There is nothing human about him. Prince, on the other hand, is all too human. Ruled by passion and emotion and devoted to his job. He takes pride in his work, and in the fact that he does it well. He may not understand why he is chosen to do it, or who he really is, but he has charm, wit and style, which are three things that HDS lacks. Prince could be considered a lesser character because he is *too* human, and doesn’t present too much of a contrast to anyone else that the crew has run into. HDS stood in stark contrast to the other humans faced on LEXX, so he may be considered a better villain. *I* wouldn’t consider him better, as I enjoy watching Prince in action much more than HDS, but like I said about me and Satan…
…We have an understanding. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
–Aleck
–Aleck
Thanks DalekTek and Aleck, your last two responses above cleared up my confusion. I understand more what your points are.
As for which has more depth, it is my belief that there is more personality and room to play with Prince, because of the humanity that Aleck spoke of. HDS, in the form that he was before taking the uncleansed man in IWHS, would be so boring to write all the time. He’s got only one thing on his mind, and no great emotions to play with.
As for better…I don’t deal in better unless I’m talking about cars, movies, food, clothes or sex. To each his own otherwise.
*giggle* Did I shock y’all with that last bit? I think I shocked myself. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/redface.gif[/img]
——————
“…we will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what normal is anyway.”
quote:
Originally posted by Aleck:
[b] Disagree, disagree, disagree. Couldn’t disagree more. HDS is *anti*-human. HDS is an essence that passes from host to host, building up his resources until he/it can destroy all of humanity. His rule was based in duplicity from the start, and it was only the human elements left over from the last uncleansed host that allowed him to slip up and be defeated. HDS is not a tragic figure in the least. What evidence is there to show that HDS changed his position from victim to victimizer? 2000 years before IWHS’ time-frame, he was just as duplicitous and vehement in his destruction as he is when the action at hand takes place, in his wanton destruction of Brunnis-2 and assassination of Kai. His actions after killing Kai are despicable and are based only in vengeance and an arrogant belief in his own superiority over the humanoid residents of this planet.Prince, on the other hand, is just a guy with a job. It is his duty to act in the manner he does, and perform the actions he does (keeping in line with the original concept of Satan, as a figure that does JHVH’s dirty work). He doesn’t know why he does what he does, where he came from, or who he really is. He is just doing what he is supposed to do, to keep things in balance. His innate desire to destroy Water is hard-wired within him, and fuels his existence. It isn’t until the unexpected arrival of the LEXX that he finds that he is *able* to destroy Water, which throws the balance of power out of whack. If Water had been destroyed by Stan early on, he would have *had* to destroy Fire, to keep the balance right, and would have been freed, but in victory rather than defeat. Either way, he ends up being freed, but the latter way allows him the satisfaction of knowing that he destroyed his opponent.
At any rate, Prince may be a bad m.f., but he ain’t despicably evil in that he retains more “humanity,” showing charm, desires, emotions, etc. HDS is completely inhuman, and is cold and calculating in his reign of destruction, and is closer to what is considered “evil” than Prince, an angel doing his job, could ever be.
But, then, Satan and I have an understanding. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
–Aleck[/b]
Alex, you say that Prince and Satan don’t know why they do what it is that they do.
“How you have fallen from Heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to earth, You who have weakened the nations! “But you said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ Isaiah 14:12-14He has free will and so do we. I want someone to love me because they choose to do so, not because I put a spell on them or some nonsense like it. Didn’t Prince tell Stan, in “Tunnels,” that he wanted Stan to love him? Stan can’t bring himself to do this. He’s just not so sure yet as to why it’s not a good idea.
Satan knows exactly what he is doing and shows plently of desire, charm etc. He desires that we worship and love him and not God.
(who knows how long “Fire and Water” were floating around out there. Could have beeen a few thousand years or just a few days.) As for Prince – Just because Kai asks him what his purpose is on “Fire and Water,” what makes you think that Prince would tell him or anyone else the truth? Xev had already caught Prince lying. He knew Xev well enough to know that she would, most likely than not, stop Stan. All that balance stuff was Prince’s way of trying to keep Xev off balance. It worked. He told her in the beginning that she held the “key,” and that is exactly what happened in the end. Satan is the father of lies. Prince and Satan are both manipulating, evasive, subtle, deceiving, cruel, and are both able to appear to be whoever or whatever they choose to be. True EVIL, more often than not, comes in the most appealing forms. It looks good, it feels good, it sounds good, it tastes good. Just a little look, a little touch, a little taste… etc. before you know it you’re hooked and in bondage to someone like Prince, who chose to appear as Kai and Xevand perhaps even Mantrid. Who is Princes’s opponent? Who did he destroy? The planets may have been destroyed, but it appears as if the souls that inhabited said planets haven’t really been harmed, as of yet. It seems to me that the only one who fully possesses Prince’s true opponet is Kai. Why? Because in spite of being dead, he knows that it is wrong to murder on any level. He has truly lived in both worlds. He knows the difference between right and wrong and he chooses right. That’s just the way that I currently see things. My “TunnelVision.” [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Reveal7:
[b] Alex, you say that Prince and Satan don’t know why they do what it is that they do.[/b]
That’s [b]Aleck[/b], and yes. You’re correct, that’s what I’m saying. Prince is closer to the original concept of Satan as a hired gun, with some of the later biblical (and Miltonian) concepts of Satan thrown in for good measure. While Prince is definitely a tempter and a liar, practicing both to serve his own needs, He is also strangely honest. He reveals to Kai where Stan is located, for one thing, and in the same scenes reveals that he really does not know who he is, or why he does what he does. The scenes with Kai show Prince being the most honest he is allowed to be. So, judging by this, he is a hired hand. Placed there to distribute punishment to the guilty. And anyway, your concept of Satan does not necessarily have to jibe with the Beans’ concept, nor with mine. LEXX is not a biblical account, but is using the Christian mythology as an archetypal basis on which to build the story of Season 3. Trying to read it as a theological text is as wrong-headed as trying to read it for its scientific accuracy. It ain’t C.S. Lewis, fercryin’outloud.
quote[quote][b]All that balance stuff was Prince’s way of trying to keep Xev off balance. It worked.[/b][/quote]
I don’t believe that for an instant. Good must always have evil as a threat, else it becomes meaningless. Water needs Fire as much as Fire needs Water, or the universe is thrown out of balance. If Water were destroyed, Fire must be destroyed as well, else the balance is gone. And vice versa.
quote[quote][b]Satan is the father of lies. [/b][/quote]
Actually, Satan is a composite of many pre-Christian deities which early theologians lumped together to brand all competing deities (particularly those who represented indulgence, such as Pan, Bacchus, etc.) as “evil” and his character has been as inconsistent as JHVH’s, ranging from a hired gun (used to carry out JHVH’s dirty work), a trickster (generally harmless, but annoying), and the High Prince of Hell. But that’s neither here nor there.
quote[quote][b]True EVIL, more often than not, comes in the most appealing forms.[/b][/quote]
And evil itself is appealing on its own…
quote[quote][b]It looks good, it feels good, it sounds good, it tastes good. Just a little look, a little touch, a little taste… etc.[/b][/quote]
Of course, this hearkens back to the philosophy that all indulgence is evil, which, if you’ve watched LEXX as closely as you appear to have done, you will note is not necessarily the prevailing philosophy of the show in general.
quote[quote][b]Who is Princes’s opponent? Who did he destroy? The planets may have been destroyed, but it appears as if the souls that inhabited said planets haven’t really been harmed, as of yet. [/b][/quote]
…And we don’t know if it was ever his intention to destroy any of the souls on the planet Water. Prince, better than anyone, knows that by killing the citizens of Water leads only to their eventual reincarnation. Like I’ve said, his hatred for Water is hard-wired within him, and has no reason. He is there to keep the balance going, and the presence of the LEXX tipped the balance of power.
–Aleck
actually, as you both probably know, there have been several classifications of devils, which do differentiate between lucifer, satan, beelzebub etc…the classifications of Types/heirarchies of devils are based on 4th century writings of Paul, following the nine orders of angels(since devils are fallen angels)…at any rate…beelzebub is the prince of the seraphim, an equal or almost equal to lucifer, leviathan is a ‘prince of the same order, and ringleader of the heretics’…and let’s not forget asmodeus, astaroth and so on…anyway, all “evil”beings have a “good being”to oppose them, thus balance in heaven and hell… The Devil is the personification of supreme evil, thus the opposite of God, the greek word for devil (diabolos) being the translation of the hebrew satan, who originally was not evil but became identified with evil by virtue of his functions (assigned by God) to test Job…it gets even more confusing than this due to years of translations, mistranslations and various people adding interpretations (including the new testament)…at any rate, since we have had no inkling of a supreme deity in the lexx universe, i don’t think Prince or HDS qualifies as the supreme evil being, but maybe merely functionaries of some sort…and yes dalek tek, i do agree with one definition of evil as being someone who knows right from wrong, but does wrong anyway, only nowadays we call that a sociopath, or someone with antisocial personality disorder [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] finally, and i am quoting directly here (russel hope robbins), “man makes his divinities, good or evil, in his own image, the result depending on the stage of his personal development and that of the age he lives in” so maybe the beans are synthesizing a whole new religion here!
This was supposed to be about His Divine Shadow, not Prince. And it was supposed to be a dialektik, not an argument. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img]
F.X.-The reason the Devil is considered prince is because one of the pagan gods assimilated into the character was the Mesopotamian Ba’al z-B’l (Beelzebub). “Ba’al” means “prince.” The name “Satan” first appeared in the Book of Enoch.
Aleck-I suppose your friendship with the Devil came from playing devil’s advocate on my philosophical posts. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
——————
Lee P. Sherman, code name DalekTek790
Whovian, Froudian, Lexxian, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
[b]This was supposed to be about His Divine Shadow, not Prince. And it was supposed to be a dialektik, not an argument. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img]
[/b]
Oh, I’m not arguing. Except in the literal sense (debating, etc.). Not a Monty Python “Argument Clinic” argument (“No it isn’t!” “Yes it is!”) or a flamewar (“You bile-inducing sack of pus! Your statements are beyond lunacy, you fool!”). Just going back and forth, debating two sides of an argument. Nothing hostile.
…And hey, wasn’t it you that brought up Prince, DT790? Up until the last couple of posts, the discussion has been in relation to HDS v. Prince. Threads have a way of displaying entropy in action…they start off specifically, and degenerate into rambling nonsense by the time it’s over. Like saying “toy boat” quickly and repeatedly.quote[quote][b]Aleck-I suppose your friendship with the Devil came from playing devil’s advocate on my philosophical posts. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
No, my relationship with the Horned One goes back *much* longer than that. But I won’t get into my personal theology here. Even though the vast majority of my posts are not in a professional or official capacity (reporting DVD news, etc.), I don’t want to go around alienating people just because an employee of Acorn might be assumed to have suspicious religious ties. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Suffice it to say, though, that I have a wall in my home covered with images and likenesses of ol’ Nick. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
…But then, I have a collection of Godzilla toys as well, so it might not mean anything. One never knows, does one? [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
–Aleck
[This message has been edited by Aleck (edited May 04, 2001).]
quote:
Originally posted by Aleck:
[b] No, my relationship with the Horned One goes back *much* longer than that. But I won’t get into my personal theology here. Even though the vast majority of my posts are not in a professional or official capacity (reporting DVD news, etc.), I don’t want to go around alienating people just because an employee of Acorn might be assumed to have suspicious religious ties. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Suffice it to say, though, that I have a wall in my home covered with images and likenesses of ol’ Nick. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]…But then, I have a collection of Godzilla toys as well, so it might not mean anything. One never knows, does one? [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
–Aleck
[This message has been edited by Aleck (edited May 04, 2001).][/b]
*********************************************
Aleck I sincerely apologize for not spelling Aleck correctly.I agree with you that it would be indeed ABSURD to read Lexx as a theological or scientific text. Perhaps it’s more like fantasy, comedy, science fiction. Since none of us can read the minds of The Supreme Beans, I suppose that we are just left to speculate as to what they may be thinking.
It also seems that we are in agreement that this is just a friendly discussion. So, on that note, if you would just answer one little, nagging question that I have, purely for curiosity sake; Who do you think hired Prince? [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
I hope you know that I very much enjoy reading your posts, as well as DalekTek790’s and everyone elses. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Reveal7:
[b]
Aleck I sincerely apologize for not spelling Aleck correctly.
[/b]
Oh, hey, no problem. I’ve been called worse than “Alex.” [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Common mistake.
quote[quote][b]Perhaps it’s more like fantasy, comedy, science fiction.[/b][/quote]
That’s *precisely* what it is, actually. A nice combo of all three. Not that the genres of fantasy, comedy *or* science fiction can’t deal in matters theological (C.S Lewis’ Narnia chronicles, [i]Dogma[/i], or [i]The Divine Invasion[/i] by Philip K. Dick for example). Just that [i]LEXX[/i], I feel, shouldn’t be viewed in that same category of allegory or metaphor.
quote[quote][b]It also seems that we are in agreement that this is just a friendly discussion.[/b][/quote]
Agreed.
quote[quote][b]So, on that note, if you would just answer one little, nagging question that I have, purely for curiosity sake; Who do you think hired Prince? [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
I’m using the terms “job” and “hired” loosely, to suit the comparison between Prince and the early biblical concept of Satan. I don’t see Prince as actually having filled out an application for the job, or having been chosen by someone else to perform it. There’s been no implication that there is a figure in [i]LEXX[/i] to equal JHVH, and you’d think that they’d run into him somewhere on Water (being omnipresent and all). I still think that Fire works best when you take into view the notion that Fire is an authoritarian bureaucracy (with Prince being the CEO), and that Water is an anti-authoritarian realm, with no one really in charge. Prince, rather than being assigned to a job, is a figure that serves a function. He exists because a need for him exists.
quote[quote][b]I hope you know that I very much enjoy reading your posts, as well as DalekTek790’s and everyone elses. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Oh, now, there’s no need to go buttering me up. [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Ditto here.
–Aleck
Concerning Prince. Here’s a thought. What if Prince is just the first evil person EVER to have died. He’s died the most, so he is the most “powerful.” The sheer repetition of repeated lives and the time is what made him powerful. He seems to be the only one who is aware of the passage of any time, what the souls experience in their limbo, maybe the idea of balance came from his own philosophy. Perhaps Water could have survived without Fire. But then that raises the question of where would the souls go to get punished. Would they just float around in limbo forever? thoughts anyone?
——————
“…we will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what normal is anyway.”
quote:
Originally posted by trillian:
[b]Concerning Prince. Here’s a thought. What if Prince is just the first evil person EVER to have died. He’s died the most, so he is the most “powerful.”interesting idea, different from the karmic wheel of people going through this over and over ’til they get it right [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] or being born over and over because there is a mission to perform…i like it
. But then that raises the question of where would the souls go to get punished. Would they just float around in limbo forever? thoughts anyone?
i guess i kind of thought of both fire and water as limbo/purgatory…it’s not as if either were very…definitive…but i guess having to peddle until you tire out and get guillotined could qualify for a rather unglamorous hell…
dalek tek, your point about ba’al and beelzebub and prince are good but remember the problem with translations and interpretations over the two thousand years or so that these texts have been floating around, that’s what makes it hard to be absolutely sure about religion/mysticism in general, you never know how much has been garbled by each “historian” along the way, and how much of the actual original oral tradition was lost or changed…anyway, there were a lot of really good points made by both of you…aleck, now i know where my eliphas levi horned god hanging got to (i seem to have lost it several moves back!)at least it is safe on your wall,but keep the godzilla droppings off of it will you
[/b]
Thank you so much Aleck, as far as that “right and wrong” thing. Because, as far as I can remember, both of those mad fools Hitler and Stalin thought they were right as rain to try and obliterate the millions of people that they killed. Yet, somehow, the world thought “evil!” However, I do agree that doing evil when you [b]know[/b] it’s evil is just, well, pretty darn evil! And, that puts Prince and HDS both in the evil realm. Mantrid was just a crazy SOB, period, especially after that merge thing happened to him (and, he wasn’t so tightly wrapped before).
And, I’m afraid I have to disagree with ya, Dalek, I think HDS possesses about as much humanity as I possess subtlety. Are you sure we’re watchin’ the same Lexx videos? The HDS I saw coldly told two people to shoot themselves, just for the heck of it. “Be a love, if you wouldn’t mind, just shoot him, now shoot yourself, oh no reason. Just exercising the ole Divine Shadow Will ‘n’ all, y’know!” On the other hand, better yet, “Divine Shadow, Cluster Lizards are devouring your followers in the arena, Dude!” Is he upset, NO! Instead he’s peeved because his “meditation” is disturbed and even hints that the guard is gonna get his later for disturbing him! Oh, yeh, HDS’s a real humanitarian. I ‘feel’ his pain and inner conflict.(NOT!) HDS is a wolf is sheep’s clothing or, in this case, a bug in human skin, that’s all. His last host has a few synapses firing messing up the works but that’s about it. The divine boy’s a bug! As for Prince, I also believe there was no real humanity there to work with, either. These were just two different critters of a whole ‘nother ilk. We’re just used to and are more comfortable thinking in terms of our own humanity.
Reveal, personally, I think that guy from “Time Bandits” hired Prince, their Supreme Being.”Do you mean you knew what was happening to us all the time?”
“Well, of course. I am the Supreme Being. I’m not entirely dim.” He’s running the test centers (Fire and Water) and Prince, Duke, et al are his employees.
Trillian, that Prince being the most powerful ‘cuz he was the first sounds cool, but he isn’t the only one who remembers and is aware of the passage of any time. Remember, Duke has this same ability, too. Remember when he got shot by Prince and fell off the gondola and said there is always another time? I was kinda bummed out that the Beans didn’t expand Duke’s part more since he was so similar to Prince, in terms of ability. Maybe, like FX pointed out, he was just a higher-ranking spirit; close to Prince but not quite his level. Now, I’m gonna try and close this and restart this on a new thread so there’s less to wade through. If I screw it up. Take numbers and form a line; whippings start after 4pm.
(BTW, Dalek, I hope you’re happy. You’ve got quite a lively and pleasant discussion going on here! And, you were after everyone had all gone cold turkey Now, excuse me, I must attempt to cluster**censored** this thread closure [img]http://www.sadgeezer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img])
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