Censorship on SadGeezer

Rules….

Well most people know where the line is. And then …. others know exactly when they cross it. In fact the second group usually knows them by chapter and verse.

Problems normally occur when the person wanting to cause strife skates right over the edge of the rule in question. Not enough to really do any damage, but just enough to let you know they were there.

This lets you have a choice of two things, ignoring the problem, which will eventually piff off the non-rule-breakers. Since they can abide with the rules and get mad because you are letting ‘X’ get away with this petty behavior.

Or you can come down on them for multiple tiny infractions. In which case you then have to expend large amounts of energy explaining and pointing out said rules, the fact that they know said rules, how they trangressed this time and why you are not ignoring them even though the violation was petty.

This is generally rewarding them with the attention they crave and reinforcing the behavior that started the whole mess in the first place.

Or to say it more briefly… 😉 the tighter the rules, the more defined the edge, the more challenge it is for the rules lawyers to break them.

***theFrey turns the soap box over to someone else *****

🙂

Cool and very interesting points made in this thread!

My two cents for what it’s worth (maybe more than two cents)…

Yep, set rules can be problematic — ideally common sense should prevail, but sometimes people choose not to moderate their behavior. I think most of us have crossed the line at some time; difficult not to. Hopefully people make the effort to learn from their mistakes. When it’s really bad is when it’s not a mistake at all; it was deliberate (trolling for instance). Big difference between intentional and unintentional…

While I don’t want to see true creativity stifled (and bearing in mind that is an adult board, and those who are easily offended should stay away), I do think we need some firm and explicit guidelines at the very least for the whole board. Without them we may risk it looking to some like the censorship is arbitrary (no one should be singled out; should apply equally and uniformly to all for every single post. Multiple, regular infractions may lead to more serious consequences, but not before consultation with, and warnings to, the individual).

Everybody makes mistakes of course, so I guess the line can be drawn when it is clear that someone is really trying to offend others (insult, distress…). They are deliberately posting to provoke a negative reaction.

So, some very general and explicit rules mightn’t be a bad thing.

BTW, I did not read the deleted story, so I really have no idea about that post. There are fairly clear general rules in that section of course. Though they may need some clarification too. I misunderstood the “not using real names” before, thinking that “nicks” would be excluded. I thought that was mainly just a legal issue, and since I’d seen other stories using people’s nicknames… Mind you, I wasn’t edited, just reminded in the subtlest of ways, so subtle I barely noticed it (’twas a minor infraction I guess, but I felty worse in a way that I wan’t told directly in my thread or by PM. I appreciate tactful forthrightness. KISS.)

I really don’t like censorship generally, and don’t offend easily most of the time, but when it is considered that a post will significantly distress the members, well at that time it may be best to edit the offending bits of the post, but I really do think a sincere and clear explanation is warranted — preferably an unemotional response. This is what I did, here’s why. But, everything on a case-by-case basis too, just speaking generally.

I know I’ve been deleted at boards — never here — and haven’t understood quite why, did nothing bad intentionally (especially when I’ve seen other people doing the same stuff and not being deleted) — I really wanted to learn from my mistakes, but since they didn’t tell me, and had no clear-cut rules…. There’s a lot to be said for concision, transparency, and accountability (I did this, now here’s why). Even if the person you’re editing, or in extreme cases, deleting needs no explanation, it would be helpful to the other members so they can understand your reasons for doing it, and therefore learn from it. I t cannot be seen to be arbitrary, hasty, a matter of the moderator’s personal taste, or because of your personal feelings towards that poster, and it should never be done in anger. It should always be done and be seen to be done for the benefit of the site’s community.

As a general rule for people here, if you don’t like a post, you can try to ignore it, but some things are very hard to ignore. It is really hard to make a value-judgement on what to censor without explicit rules that everyone is aware of.

As to what those rules should be… You can’t come up with rules on taste, since that’s too subjective, but if it’s abusive, spammy, promoting illegal activities (bearing in mind that we’re an international community and laws differ), really pornographic or sickeningly violent (I love sexual innuendo, but I’m talking harcore stuff) and if the intent is clearly to disturb, distress, and offend others here, well…. The line is really drawn at the poster’s intent, and while one must be charitable when it comes to looking at their intent and the content of their posts (try to give them the benefit of the doubt), when it apparently crosses the line, censorship (editing) should be carefully considered (some consultation may be best), when it clearly crosses the line, editing may be required without consultation, and when it really leaps over the line, well full, immdediate deletion is warranted, plus a warning PM to the poster.

Maybe this board could do with a very few-holds barred forum which is only accessable to those who are almost impossible to offend … then again, maybe not. Some forums even have a flamewar forum, not suggesting it for here, not bad to relieve the tensions, though invariably they just get silly. It’s hard to take flamewars seiously after a while and they sometimes descend into giggles followed by extreme boredom. 🙄

While there’s been much talk of freedom of expression at this board, what about excision as another valid form of expession (but not a truly free form of expression, of course. If we are to have posting rules, the same rules should apply to what we can delete, and they would). So I don’t think it should just be at the moderator’s discretion — mods make mistakes too, I know because I’m one, the mods should be following rules too (not just at their whim), but I trust the admin/mods here and I believe they would make a very conscious effort not to act hastily, or in a biased, arbitrary manner. The actions would be out of consideration to all.

I’m fine leaving it pretty much at the discretion of the moderators. Obviously there are somethings I’d like to see censored. There are reasons (other than propoganda) that censorship came into being

Different rules apply to other forums. There are some that ban discussion on religion and politics as they’re the main topics likely to cause ‘unrest’ amonst members. Others allow such discussions to varying degrees of success (dependant on moderators and the normal lurkers around the forum in question).

Most have a button that comes under each of the posts saying something akin to ‘report this post to a moderator’ – what this does opens a message box asking you to put across why you’re reporting the post. Then it sends a copy of the post and your comment to all the moderators (not all mods inhabit the boards 24/7), and someone at least looks up the post, removes it/leaves it/gives caution about what lines of discussion that the post brings about that aren’t allowed to be followed etc. Again- depends on the forum in question, but generally it works.

Freedom of speech has its place, but that doesn’t mean you have to allow ANYTHING to go unnoticed. There are places on the net catering to special interests, and people are ‘free’ to go to these places and discuss such issues with like-minded people without antagonising people who just visit this particular forum to put their feet up and discuss their favourie television shows.
________________________________________

For interest here’s an exerpt from onipress’ boards (comic publishing company)- obviously the 2 paragraphs of the exerpt before the one at the end won’t apply to this board, I’m sticking them down since they did bring a grin to my face when I read them

[quote]First and foremost, we ask that you in some way post under you true identity. This means if you choose to use a screen name, then you should use your real e-mail address. If you’d prefer to keep your e-mail private, then we ask that you post under your real name. While we won’t police this rule heavily, it will be invoked harshly when someone is posting inflammatory remarks. We dislike cowards. We don’t like people who can’t stand behind their opinions. Posting nasty messages anonymously will cause your messages to be deleted and you to be banned from the message board.

The logical extension of the above is that we won’t tolerate one person to harshly attack others, or anyone to purposely create a negative atmosphere on this board. That includes personal attacks on other visitors, creators, or Oni staff. (We all like to make extreme jokes at times, yes, but we are all friends here and know when someone is being a jerk.) We won’t tolerate any racist comments, extreme politics, or general nastiness. There are other places for that.

That doesn’t mean we don’t allow dissent or contrary opinions. But please focus on constructive criticism and not out-and-out insults. And keep in mind where you are. If you came here to just diss an Oni book or one of Oni’s creators, don’t be surprised if many disagree with you-strongly. You stepped into a fan area, and fans tend to like to talk about what they enjoy more than what they don’t. Again, feel free to state your opinion, just don’t be surprised when others express theirs in response, okay? We would like the focus of our board to be, first and foremost, on comics. Second, we would like it to be about pop culture. If you want to get all serious, then go someplace all serious. This is not the community for you.

And while most pop culture is fair game, we have one area that is off limits. WE HATE STAR WARS. YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT STAR WARS ON THE ONI PRESS MESSAGE BOARD. Seriously. We would like to create one place on this planet where that stupid movie series is not discussed. You mention those films or any of those characters, we will either edit your message or delete it completely. We are not kidding. Frequent disregard for this rule could lead to temporary banishment.

You can talk about Star Trek, but you walk a thin line. And the Oni staff reserves the right to ridicule you.

Finally, we ask that you have fun.

[/quote]

[quote=”Logan”]
(and bearing in mind that is an adult board, and those who are easily offended should stay away) [/quote]

erm.. sorry to sound ignorant, but where exactly does it state that ? 😳 😳 😳 In my experience, there are plenty of adults out there that are totally childish in their behaviour whilst under an assumed name. On the other hand, there are plenty of ‘mature’ young people in ‘cyberspace.’

[quote=”fluffy bunny”][quote=”Logan”]
(and bearing in mind that is an adult board, and those who are easily offended should stay away) [/quote]

erm.. sorry to sound ignorant, but where exactly does it state that ? 😳 😳 😳 In my experience, there are plenty of adults out there that are totally childish in their behaviour whilst under an assumed name. On the other hand, there are plenty of ‘mature’ young people in ‘cyberspace.’[/quote]

Point well taken even ‘though it is a bit of a red herring as that’s not actually the “adult” connotation that I meant. I mean, as I’m sure you know, that the board contains material that [i]many[/i] would consider unsuitable for minors (whether it be of a sexual or indecent nature — indecent, there’s another loaded word 😆 ).

To quote the [url=http://www.sadgeezer.com/html/FAQ+index-myfaq-yes-id_cat-5-categories-Introduction+to+this+site-parent_id-0.html]FAQ:[/url]

[quote=”Sad FAQ”]By the way, this site is for grown-ups so if yer a kiddie – SOD OFF! These pages are far too complex and you wouldn’t appreciate the innuendo (sexual or otherwise). However, for those of you who are new, fairly new, or just interested in cult TV Sci Fi and would like no-nonsense information, comment or news displayed with lots of pictures and [i]not too highbrow[/i], then this is the site for you!

But please remember…

I am a Cult TV Sci Fi SadGeezer
and this site is probably offensive

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED![/quote]

To be taken with a pinch of salt to be sure, 😉 but useful too (if people (and parents) get upset with “adult” content etc., well, they should have read first/can be directed to the FAQ).

I’ve often found it ironic when there’s a warning on TV that a show deals with mature adult themes that those shows are often the most immature I’ve seen. Sadgeezer.com also deals with some shows that are [b]officially[/b] intended for adults; like LEXX. Many shows that are officially intended for adults (those over 18 or whatever) are really being aimed at kids. I wonder how many kids watch South Park, or Tom Green (South Park even parodied this “mature” theme in their Terrance and Philip movie within the South Park movie).

Saddy double posted 😳 I think some sort of reprimand is in order here 😈

[quote=”SadGeezer”]

In my view that is impossible so in the end, I have to rely on the immortal [b]Bill and Ted[/b] for guidance:- [i]Only one rule which cannot be broken:[/i]

<center>[size=18][b][color=orange]”Lets be excellent to each other!”[/color][/b][/size]</center>

Silly and childish I know but it works for me! :)[/quote]

As long as we don’t have to start playing Air-Guitars….

😳 Am I the only one who owns both of those films on DVD? 😳

All kidding aside, it’s good advice in general. I always try to remember to take a second look before I hit that ‘Submit’ button. T

Hello my fellow Sadgeezers 😀 !

Wow! I never expected to come home to this much discussion! While this was going on at the board; I also was thinking about this very issue as I pounded on old people’s doors and got chased around by unleashed dogs…..

First of all – censorship means closing one’s mind. Censorship means one person – or a group of people – deciding who can communicate and what gets communicated. Censorship means control. Show me any of the great artists who manned censor boards 🙄 ….. But show me how many artists of merit that were censored – and yet their work lives on as treasures for humanity. That which is new and unorthodox or creative will always strike fear into the hearts of most people. To protect themselves from change – these new ideas or techniques of communication are “censored”.

When i was a child, showing a woman’s belly button on TV was censored, look at today’s style….. Censors always look foolish in hindsight or evil….. “A Catcher In The Rye” was the object of censorship when we finally got to read it; “Lord Of The Flies” was not shown to us because one kid has his head crushed by a bolder (saw the unedited copy and it was not so bad…..). All that was censored in my past has been reveal in the present – and the world survives…..

Quit frankly…..I am appalled at the spineless attitude toward free speech in the world today. Did we forget the oppressive regimes where free speech meant imprisonment or death? I dare you guys to post the short story of mine and let the collective rule on it’s merits. We can all talk about the ‘horror” I wrote; but I do not think it is vile or horrible. It is social commentary about the world we live in and the possible end of that world in the future – and the judgement of the last man that reflects upon it – and given the date of yesterday…..I was in the mood to write it. I did not write it to “test the waters at Sadgeezer”.

This is a Sci-fi forum – Sci-Fi! The field of the unknown and extreame possibilities. Why everyone here wants boring and predictable stories is beyond me….. Open you minds! Yes – shock value has it’s place in Sci-Fi!

I am going to go wherever my mind takes me because I want to keep growing….. I will not ask another permission on what to think and what to write! We can only think through language (try to think about something you can’t verbalize…..); and censoring language is closing our minds.

Anyway – on to more practical matters. I was wondering if it is possible to post my stories on my own personal web space and link the stories in the future. That way – I would not feel as bad as I did this morning when a story of mind disappeared before I had a chance to save it. Since it is just a link – it is not the same as deleting text. Also – would this not side-step the issue of intellectual rights since this is just a link? Comments?

Maurice

Just a quickly wriiten response, ’cause I have little time.

In my extremely humble opinion…

Fatguy, yes to much you say, but I really think you think too much in absolutes — black and white (poor pun intended) arguments (Fatguy is a black man, Fatguy is a white man). You’ve gotta free your mind; there’s a whole grey area out there to explore! Be free! To clarify: Some censorship is bad, some censorship is a necessary evil (now I should clarify necessary .. and evil, but I won’t). I don’t like the concept of censorship, but I do think it’s called for at times for various reasons. I’ve had my fling with Civil Liberties — there was the case of censorship regarding kiddie porn here. I was against the right to own and distribute kiddie porn… (a question of freedom of expression) one always has to consider the consequences of giving absolute rights. Freedom is myth, and always will be (as a hard determinist that has particular relevence to me).

If you are totally against censorship, and as a corollary, rules on censorship, are you aginst all laws and rules? Do we have the right to kill someone for whatever reason? No, freedoms and rights must be limited for the “greater good” (another loaded term). Not all laws are good, but many are necessary (necessary evils I would argue, but won’t get into that).

BTW, many great works of art were produced under regimes where extreme censorship was practiced. I am concerned about eroding liberties. However, don’t forget we’re guests here, in a sense, and it would be extremely discourteous not to try to play by the rules, a big part of that is being respectful of others. We all deserve some respect. I don’t imagine that linking very obscene stories (bearing in mind that I didn’t read it) would be appropriate, any more than linking to hardcore porn sites or violent images (to do so would be disrespectful to the people who are paying for this site and putting lots of effort into it so that we all can enjoy it — and you have enjoyed it, make the most of it for what it is, not what you want it to be). There are always lots of other places you can post your stories (btw, I posted a very rude one at lexx.com, but I won’t link it).

You raise interesting philosophical points (idealistic not particularly pragmatic — good for dicussion) but ina way it’s all a bit silly really. You have the freedom to find other sites which will be willing to host it. Why don’t you ask McDonalds.com to post your story? But be careful of plagiarism there, the Hamburglar is always stealing stuff. 😉

Time For A Sadgeezer Constitution!

Just read some of the posts and think that maybe something good can come of this. We need a constitution – spelling out the intent of the web site, the structure (and who does what and is responsible, etc.), and what is expected of the members and clearly specified rules that are not solely at the discretion of a moderator.

To give you an example: A week or two ago. MandaraK was telling us that she wished to take a break and I posted a reply telling her not to be a stranger and to please come back and that I was a secret fan of her. Why was that censored Thefrey? I will not speak for MandaraK; but my message probably did not get read by her….. It is getting to the point that I do not know how many posts have been deleted and for what reasons. It is like I have to save pages and go back to see if my posts are still there….. A constitution guaranteeing that posts are not arbitrarily censored would be nice.

By the way guys, it would be so easy to go after your arguments, and some of your judgement and comments….. However, this path is pointless. I would rather remain positive. Sadgeezer’s site with the multitude of moderators does need a uniform set of rules to protect the rights of all members.

Maurice

Can I change my vote to what Headgehog said?

Man, I suck at laying things out so clearly. That was what I meant to say though, so when reading my original post, or when reading Headgehogs, just pretend I said that, k? 🙄

[quote=”Headgehog”]This melodramatic campaign against censorships fails to notice and/or mention, that posts are almost never edited or deleted. Further more, users are rarely banned, and when they are it’s only for a short period. In my two years as a mod/admin, I have never edited a post for content.

Considering that most posters are responsible and mature, having clear cut rules and guidelines are redundant and unnecessary. Those few individuals who insist of acting like pre-pubescent teens are rare, and won’t follow the guidelines any way. People [i]know[/i] when they’re doing something wrong.

Drafting a formal set of rules is a waste of time and will cause the site to become much more bueracratic then it should ever be. We’ll spend more time arguing over the bloody rules then we will about the edit of a post!

This is a site for all scifi fans to enjoy. All the paperwork will bogdown the spirit of the site; reading about and the discussion of cult scifi.[/quote]

Not quite Headgehog – A constitution need not be complicated nor time consuming. Simply a hub of information that has easy access to all. What a constitution will do is take away some of the powers that some already have; but it is Sadgeezer himself who gives up the most…..not the moderators. A web site with a constitution has a life apart from the people who run it – the plus side is that it is easier to handle large groups of people as Sadgeezers is getting large. You say that “we’ll spend more time arguing over the bloody rules then we will about the edit of a post!” – look at the activity surrounding this topic (and most people have no clue as to what Thefrey censored…..); and clearly spelled out rules mean you will spend “less” time as there is “no” argument.

Remember – it was Sadgeezer himself who opened up the discussion about discretion vs set guidelines. You are very young Headgehog (what is it…..just turned 21)…..na, I won’t say anymore…..just you are very young – and I happen to like what you are doing here. This is just discussion. I have no power except the force of my arguments, you need not fear me…..

Maurice

[quote=”nursewhen”][quote=”Fatguy”]You are very young Headgehog (what is it…..just turned 21[/quote]
Wow What a brilliant tactic. Trash somebody’s opinions by being ageist! :roll:[/quote]

Nah…..was thinking about his references to the Beatles – even they were before my time…..heheheheehe! How times have changed. By the way – if anyone thinks I am angry and such…..Nope! I am quite happy right now…..

Maurice

This issue before us really comes down to group tactics and group pressure on those who do not “fit in”. My arguments have been called “silly” as I could go elsewhere – so why stand and fight here?

“I” – personally, have never been a part of a group, nor have I ever felt part of a group (though once about ten years ago an East Indian tailor was talking to me like I was one of his kind and I felt like I was one of a group or wanted…..is that what it is like to be part of a group?). Because of this – group tactics and pressure do not work on me and you can take any cheap shots at me, or show numerical consolidation around an issue – does not mean “squat” to me – I really am a “lone wolf”. Because of that, I can never have access to the advantages of being part of a group – for example, rank among the group, access to restricted information, perks, etc.. “I” am on my own. The only tools I have available are “rights” and “laws”; and these tools are only effective if that society I operate in – values these “rights” and “laws”.

All people should be created equally and I demand that I be treated in the same way and by the same rules as everyone else. A standard set of limits as to what is appropriate or not would achieve this goal; and the limits are up to the web site (i.e. by their own standards, poll of the members, etc..). Just what is the difference between Logan’s work about flatulence and my “waste of bandwith with no merit whatsoever” as Thefrey would say? Currently, this call is discretionary, at the “whim” of a moderator…..why?

I would never be a moderator as I see over and over again, the corrupting influence of unrestricted power over others. This is why free nations have constitutions. They acknowledge that human nature is what it is and that we shall place limits over officials so that the moral rights of others are not infringed. This is the best policy; a policy of fairness to all that use this site, and also an attraction to those who wish to become members.

Why not go to another site? Why make a stand here? Perhaps if I was of like racial and ethnic background of the area in which I live – I would play the game of “suck up” or “kiss ass” for a position of authority. But this option was never available to me and so that is why I operate as I do. This frustrates people because I don’t care if you hate me or shun me…..does not mean anything to me. My home is wherever I am and I am here and here I shall fight until banned.

At the very least; a set standard of rules applicable to all, is needed for censorship to be exercised (if at all…..). A constitution would be a good idea, but this is Sadgeezer’s choice as this is his site. Sorry for being what I am…..

Maurice

Alright Sadgeezer, I guess the issue is closed; I shall say no more. That does not mean I do not appreciate you opening up the discussion for me (and others) to speak our mind – for that opportunity I say – thank you.

Maurice

[quote=”FX”]gee, i wish i had seen the story in question 😕 [/quote]
You still can. Fatguy has remote linked to it at [url=http://webhome.idirect.com/~rem223/RemoteManualLink]this address [/url]

[quote=”FX”]8) hmmm, scatalogically obsessed much? 😈
the second seemed to be just a twist on [i]jung’s dream[/i]…[/quote]

The twist being it’s more like [i]dung’s jream[/i].

Actually, I must admit that two of my stories here are quite scatological (abundant toilet humour). 😳 And a link I provided to my old Pyramid of Dung petition in one of my story threads was all about scatological obsession… It’s not just about the content, it’s how you express it and… Well, maybe I should remove mine. I’ve gone off bog-humour anyway.

([i]I wish I had noticed this thread earlier. This particular forum is new to me. I started reading SadBoard again on 17 September and so I didn’t notice it. All I saw was a locked thread pertaining to this subject. So I took it upon myself to reopen the issue in a new thread in the SciFi Angst forum. That caused a lot of confusion and everybody and their dog yelled at me.[/i])
😳 😳 😳 😳 😳

I emailed Fatguy and requested a copy of his deleted story. (I did not see it when it was originally posted.) [b][i]In my opinion, it did NOT violate the established rules for posting stories at SadGeezer.Com.[/i][/b]

[quote=”Flamegrape”]I emailed Fatguy and requested a copy of his deleted story. (I did not see it when it was originally posted.) [b][i]In my opinion, it did NOT violate the established rules for posting stories at SadGeezer.Com.[/i][/b][/quote]

Does it actually matter? Since Fatguy has now neatly sidestepped ALL censorship by remote linking, the story is now availbale to everybody on the board. Including the story where Stan kills Xev which I believe was formerly deleted by you.