*SPOILER* "Matrix Reloaded"
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Okay, I have a serious question for those who have seen the second “Matrix” movie. I’ve read many approving reviews that didn’t seem to pick up on this. I read more than a few poor reviews that complained about a bunch of things that were explained by this too.
Am I the only one to pick up on the idea that the grungy, gritty, “real world” of Zion was, in fact, within the Matrix? That the Matrix representation of 1999 was really a Matrix within the Matrix? That the actual [b]real[/b] real world was never seen in either movie? That there appears to be a good possibility that Neo is, in fact, a computer program?
The answer/s to your questions (I think) can be traced back to the first film, where Neo opens a copy of Baudrillard’s Simulacra and Simulation . Baudrillard’s ideas provide a key to understanding the The Matrix (the film and the program) . In Baudrillard, a simulacra is a copy without an original, and I suspect that this equally applies to the Matrix and/or its inhabitants….who are in search of an original (copy) within the matrix. In other words, they are all living life in a simulacra, a copy which is its own ‘true’ reality, (who in turn) are looking for the truth of who/what they might be in there. Given the filmmaker’s liking of anime, I also think that Ghost in the Shell provides the best way to unlock the significance of a simulacra – where the artificially intelligent beings strive to become conscious of the limits of their own virtual reality.
[quote=”bonnee”]The answer/s to your questions (I think) can be traced back to the first film…[/quote]
No, the question I asked was if anyone else who saw the movie, “The Matrix Reloaded,” realised that everything that has been seen in both movies have been computer simulations?But I’ll take your answer as a, “Yes, I noticed that.”
🙄Actually, you asked a couple of questions which were (themselves) clearly mere copies seeking an original (copy). 😆 In my attempt to retrace them, I see simulations and simulcara of an original question that (somehow) got lost in the hall of mirrors seeking an identity and/or object of comparrison . In other words, get with the programme 🙄
[quote=”bonnee”]Actually, you asked a couple of questions which were (themselves) clearly mere copies seeking an original (copy). [/quote]
No they weren’t. You’re just being difficult and distracting as usual.Roger Ebert, of the Chicago Sun-Times, noticed it: “We may also wonder if Zion and its free citizens really exist, or if the humans only think so, but that leads to a logical loop ending in madness.”
[quote=”Flamegrape”]
Roger Ebert, of the Chicago Sun-Times, noticed it: “We may also wonder if Zion and its free citizens really exist, or if the humans only think so, but that leads to a logical loop ending in madness.”[/quote]
Well, I (and any other person vaguely familar with philosophy) would question the latter part of where that ‘logical loop’ might lead. Within Descartes, the cogito – I think, therfore I am – is offered as a proof of existence. Ghost in the Shell (like the Matrix) turns that thought on its head, and encourages us to think about what it means to be sane or rational (ie. self conscious, or trully real). The Matrix is a religious allegory about the meaning of life itself.
It’s actually a confusing film…. I think Peter Chung (creator of Aeon Flux and creator of the Animated short Matriculated (from The Animatrix) put it well:
[quote][b][color=orange]Reloaded spoilers ahead… [/color][/b]
The single most striking thing about Reloaded to me was that you do need to see Final Flight of the Osiris first in order to follow the first half of the movie. At the screening I attended, people around me seemed very disengaged because they had no idea what was supposed to be happening. All the rebels are heard talking about the threat from the machines drilling towards Zion, but we don’t actually see it until the end of the movie.
I didn’t understand why the people of Zion regarded Neo with such reverence, since we never see them witnessing him doing any of his superhuman feats in the Matrix.
For that matter, I’m not sure what relevance the struggles in the Matrix have to the man-machine conflict in the real world. How exactly is Neo’s journey to “the source” of the Matrix supposed to protect Zion from the machines’ imminent invasion? I’m guessing that by finding a way to destroy the Matrix, they’d be disconnecting all the humans, thus disrupting the machines’ energy supply.
My biggest criticism is that action and ideas were poorly integrated. The action scenes and dialogue scenes seemed to have nothing to do with each other. What did the freeway chase accomplish plotwise? I thought the goal was to get the keymaker to an exit point (phoneline).
I did like the suggestion that Morpheus is deluded about his faith in Neo– but we’ll have to see whether that is carried out to the end.
I also liked the scenes with the Merovingian and Persephone. (The Wachowskis had made some oblique references to them when I met with them to pitch Matriculated, so I was intrigued to find out how the idea got executed.)
Overall, a film which could be made much better with some (okay, a lot of) re-editing.
— Peter Chung – May 20, 2003.
[/quote]Extracted from the [url=http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00AqRW]Aeon Flux Forum[/url] at Greenspun
I must admit Flame, that’s not the impression that I got.
I know what you mean though. But as I see it, the MAtrix can only exist WITH Zion. Ie. that Zion is a sort of balance between the robot baddies and the poor ailing humanity.
The Architect tells us in his bloody long monologue that the matrix has already destroyed Zion 6 times and that it would destroy it again soon.
If Zion was a part of the Matrix, why would they need to destroy it?
I couldn’t for the life of me work out why Peter Chung thought it was important to see the Last Fight of the Osiris before seeing Matrix Reloaded !
It wasn’t really important to see the last flight of the osiris, as that just showed a very small portion of what was too come, i.e the osiris saw what the machines was up too, building a massive army of squidy’s and using massive drills that were placed directly above Zion to attack it, the osiris was then seen and the squidy’s attacked the Osiris, the osiris couldn’t use the EMP as they had to get a message to the post box to warn of the impending attack, so they sent someone in to deliver it, she made it, but the osiris was destroyed shortly after.
I think the Matrix is a smaller program and that Neo, Zion and the agents are all the same…computer simulations, it is a pre-designed
scenario designed to give mankind one thing…hope, but it’s a false hope, it’s meant to make the human race believe that they can be free, when in fact they never can be, and this program has been run countless times and that’s why Zion has been destroyed time and again, perhaps someone in the real ‘REAL’ world someone does start to behave differently and the big computer (that really controls the Matrix) runs the Matrix scenario to dispel any thoughts of what’s really going on, I think that’s what the keymaker really is, he knows that Neo and the rest don’t truly exist, although I think he either doesn’t know for sure or he can’t make himself stand out too much as he is the only one that is truly real, perhaps he feels that he can use both Neo’s and the Matrix’s programming to attack the main computer and really free the human race.
Or it could be that if he is the architect, he is the one human allowed to live in the real world to maintain the Matrix programming, he finally decides he is sick of what is going on and finds a way to destroy the main computer that controls the Matrix, he may have created Neo (each tiime the program/person is different) under instruction from the main computer to run this scenario again, only this time he’s tweaked ‘The One’s’ programming to essentially make Neo a rogue virus that can destroy the main computer. However, he needs to enter the Matrix to guide the Neo program to execute it’s goal without actually telling Neo and the rest that they don’t really exist and they are not fighting for their lives, but his and maybe a few thousand others, maybe mankind is not made up of millions, but a few thousand in reality and he needs the Neo program he created to destroy it.
So destroying Zion for a sixth time is how many times the architect has seen it happen in his life time, yet he may have had many predeccessors who have witnessed it countless times, all because it is part of the Matrix simulation and that’s how it always plays out.
I think the wachowskis are doing a wizard of oz on a grander scale, and the whole story is a dream within a dream.
I could be wrong, but the whole concept of the Matrix is designed to make you think and give you shock value, in the first film we were astounded to learn that Thomas Anderson lived in a dream world, now take that premise up a notch and we then are shocked to find out that Neo is also living in a dream world created to cloud his mind, the bubble inside a bubble, of course by this stage your head starts to hurt!!!, and in a way it’s dangerous as some guillable people in the audience will then start to question their own reality.
And that Peter Chung bloke is a bit thick isn’t he!?!, he wrote ‘I didn’t understand why the people of Zion regarded Neo with such reverence, since we never see them witnessing him doing any of his superhuman feats in the Matrix.’, why should they?, no one today saw Jesus in action but they still believe in him, the people of Zion know Neo is the one and that’s all they need too know, what does Chung expect, they all pack into the Matrix just so they can see Neo in action, they would all be at risk from agents….Chung you’re a dummy!!!
He also wrote ‘For that matter, I’m not sure what relevance the struggles in the Matrix have to the man-machine conflict in the real world. How exactly is Neo’s journey to “the source” of the Matrix supposed to protect Zion from the machines’ imminent invasion? ‘,…erm, this guy doesn’t pay much attention does he, Neo needs to be there to keep the Matrix busy while the rest have to get to the other humans to free their minds, as we saw in the first film it’s not a case of ‘Hi, just dropped by to let you know you’re living in a dream world’, each human has to be freed over time, they need to believe the truth before they can be freed, you can’t do that after a cup of tea and five minute chat with Morpheus, especially seeing as Thomas Andeson already knew of the Matrix and therefore was slightly easier too convince, no one else does and convincing them is a damn sight harder…so Chung, do your homework.
ADM
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