Vlad the elder=Time Prophet
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Recieved this from Sgt. Draino today:
quote:
[b]
Just a quick note to see if you noticed that “old hag” version of Vlad in fact WAS the Time Prophet. Or at least was the actress (Anna Cameron) who played the Time Prophet. I thought that was interesting, considering Vlad claims to have killed the Time Prophet.Wouldn’t it be interesting if Vlad was lying, and in fact turned out to BE the Time Prophet? Modified by His Shadow’s Bio-Scholars? It would seem very much in His Shadow’s nature to turn the Time Prophet into a super all-knowing assassin, like that.
Sgt. Draino[/b]
Excellent idea! What do you think peeps?
[ 25-09-2001: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]
All hail Squishy – the Cluster Lizard Prophet! [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]
Thanx Aurora, I have seen into the cycles of Lexx, and know of this as it has happened before and shall happen again…ok not really!!!
Squishy the cluster lizard prophet!!! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]okay, this circular time stuff [b]still[/b]makes me head hurt, but i have to admit, this idea is intriguing to my two tiny braincells…i like it, and i like the idea of time prophet being engulfed into hds vengeance, only to defeat him again and again…well done peeps [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] (fx hands out coronas with lime to all involved)
quote:
Originally posted by siglum:
the story line would seem to hint at the
time prophet being vlad – it would be in
character with his shadow to have killed
the time prophet after he questioned her,
& then had her corpse sent to the lab for
the conversion into vlad – who knows, the
time prophets conscience may still be awake
inside of vlad, only able to watch whats
happening with no way to control the events
brought on by the vlad persona [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]
Squishy came up with similar theory sometime ago, I like this one very much.
I think the beans have somewhat been influenced by the storyline of The Phantom Menace, The Time Prophet could be seen as similar to Anakin Skywalker, good turning to evil, except in this case TP didn’t have a choice.
Maybe HDS realised that by killing TP, he would recieve her memories and that would be crucial to his knowledge of things to come, but perhaps he couldn’t get her memories, and decided to turn her into an assassin.
It does remind me of Anakin as Obi-Wan said that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, in the same way that Vlad might kill TP, it’s not the physical act of murder that occurs, but the vanquishing of all that is good within TP.
Squishyquote:
Originally posted by Squishy:
I think the beans have somewhat been influenced by the storyline of The Phantom Menace, The Time Prophet could be seen as similar to Anakin Skywalker, good turning to evil, except in this case TP didn’t have a choice.
Naw, His Divine Shadow is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. They’re both a great warrior who became the figurehead of an evil organization after his people were killed. Plus they’re both cool guys in black voiced by black guys. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
The Time Prophet is more like Obi-Wan or Yoda. Or perhaps the nameless prophets who wrote the Journal of the Whills.
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Naw, His Divine Shadow is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. They’re both a great warrior who became the figurehead of an evil organization after his people were killed. Plus they’re both cool guys in black voiced by black guys. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
The Time Prophet is more like Obi-Wan or Yoda. Or perhaps the nameless prophets who wrote the Journal of the Whills.
You’ve missed the point again DT, Anakin was good early on, whereas HDS has always been evil.
So the Time Prophet being like Anakin in that she was good, Anakin transformed by evil into Darth Vader, the Time Prophet could have been also been transformed into Vlad by evil (HDS).
SquishyThat’s my point. It’s been implied that His Divine Shadow was good as an Insect. He didn’t act very evil until his essence was passed into the uncleansed human host. I think that was the Beans’ was of saying the enemy isn’t always the “other.”
This whole cycle of time thing was a real original idea. I don’t think [b]anything[/b] other than [i]Lexx[/i] has ever had time end then begin again in a continuous loop. [i]Doctor Who[/i], [i]Star Trek: The Next Generation[/i], and [i]The X-Files[/i] have all had time loop episodes, but they never suggested that [b]all[/b] of time is a cycle. Of course it’s impossible, but it’s a neat idea.
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
That’s my point. It’s been implied that His Divine Shadow was good as an Insect. He didn’t act very evil until his essence was passed into the uncleansed human host. I think that was the Beans’ was of saying the enemy isn’t always the “other.”
Again, I’ve never received an answer on this, but *where* exactly has it *ever* been implied that HDS was “good” as an insect? I mean besides evidence that springs whole from your imagination?
HDS has *ALWAYS* been evil. LONG before his essence was passed into an unclean host. Find some evidence to back up your theory and maybe it will hold water.–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by Aleck:
Again, I’ve never received an answer on this, but *where* exactly has it *ever* been implied that HDS was “good” as an insect? I mean besides evidence that springs whole from your imagination?
HDS has *ALWAYS* been evil. LONG before his essence was passed into an unclean host. Find some evidence to back up your theory and maybe it will hold water.–Aleck
Oh surely Aleck, you must remember the time HDS dressed up as Santy Claus, and did that stint as the nice crossing guard?
Of course HDS wanting to wipe out the entire human race would make him a nice guy in DT’s books.
And DT, although there has never been a complete loop of time, the Star Trek franchise has used time to go back to the beginning to end the series, same as Lexx might do, so it has been done before.
I’ve got to go, I have a mate coming round… HDS is cooking a nice spag bol, and we are going to sit in front of the T.V and laugh at fire-escape…nice ol boy that HDS!!!
Squishyquote:
Originally posted by Squishy:
Oh surely Aleck, you must remember the time HDS dressed up as Santy Claus, and did that stint as the nice crossing guard?
Oh, *that’s* right. I forgot about the lovable, huggable part of HDS’ history. Back when he would organize Cluster-wide food drives for the citizenry (except that the citizenry *was* the food being driven), plan shopping trips for the seniors, and parents used to routinely tell their children “Just think, you could grow up to have your mind and personality erased and be possessed by the essence of His Divine Shadow!”
Oh, those were glorious days on the Cluster. HDS T-shirts were on the chest of any good citizen, and little stuffed Shadows were found in the sleep chambers of all the kids.–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
That’s my point. It’s been implied that His Divine Shadow was good as an Insect. He didn’t act very evil until his essence was passed into the uncleansed human host. I think that was the Beans’ was of saying the enemy isn’t always the “other.”This whole cycle of time thing was a real original idea. I don’t think [b]anything[/b] other than [i]Lexx[/i] has ever had time end then begin again in a continuous loop. [i]Doctor Who[/i], [i]Star Trek: The Next Generation[/i], and [i]The X-Files[/i] have all had time loop episodes, but they never suggested that [b]all[/b] of time is a cycle. Of course it’s impossible, but it’s a neat idea.
M’kay, that didn’t quite work. Let’s try that again…
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
This whole cycle of time thing was a real original idea. I don’t think [b]anything[/b] other than [i]Lexx[/i] has ever had time end then begin again in a continuous loop. [i]Doctor Who[/i], [i]Star Trek: The Next Generation[/i], and [i]The X-Files[/i] have all had time loop episodes, but they never suggested that [b]all[/b] of time is a cycle. Of course it’s impossible, but it’s a neat idea.
It IS a neat idea, but contrary to what I initially thought, it’s not necessarily impossible.
Cycles of Time relates to comedy-recycling theory, which postulates that the universe expands from a big bang, only to collapse in a big crunch, which leads to another big bang, and so on, and so on. Thus the universe is reborn in cycles. The Time Prophet’s view postulates that events in each cycle will unfold exactly the same each time, because the starting conditions are exactly the same with each cycle (ignoring chaos theory, of course). Thus, after time “ends,” time “begins again” with the next cycle.
What most folks don’t seem to realize (and I’m not convinced even the Beans realize this), is that Our Crew did not technically “destroy” the Light Universe. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. They caused it to collapse, in a big crunch. Therefore, this should logically lead to another big bang, the next cycle of time.
You’re not taking my interpretation seriously. Here is an excerp from [i]Lexx 1.1: I Worship His Shadow[/i] that illustrates my point-
Divine Predecessor: Divine Shadow today is a dark day for Heretics and infidels throughout our universe. The Lexx will soon be fully grown and you will be able to send it on its voyage bringing destruction upon all those who would oppose the League of 20,000.
Divine Shadow: How will we know which planets shelter enemies of order, which planets are to be chosen for destruction.
Divine Predecessor: That will be your task.
Divine Shadow: Then my task is complete, I choose to destroy them all.
Divine Predecessor: That has not been our plan.
Divine Shadow: Divine Predecessors, [b]I am formed from you, but my host brain was not fully cleansed and therefore I am also partly formed from humans, I will choose my own path[/b] and I choose that I myself will command the Lexx on its voyage of destruction.
Divine Predecessor: How about the prophecy.
Divine Shadow: I have no patience for your ancient superstitions. The Brunnen G have been extinct for over two thousand years.
Divine Predecessor: The Divine Shadow must never leave the Cluster unless there is great peril. We need each other’s strength.
Divine Shadow: I agree Divine Predecessors, I will not risk being separated from your wisdom and guidance. As you will join me on my voyage.
Divine Predecessor: The prophecy is upon us!
The humanized Shadow deviates considerably from the plan laid down by his (fully Insect) predecessors. [b]He’s opposing his former self![/b] He’s willing to destroy 20,000 planets containing his own subjects just to kill a few Heretics on one planet. As an Insect, he logically considered that wasteful and was ready to conduct an investigation to determine the Heretics’ exact planet of origin, and not take any hasty and irrational action. The Divine Predecessors are quite shocked by the humanized Shadow’s change of plans. He also broke [b]his own rules[/b] by leaving the Cluster and putting the Predecessors on board the Lexx. He even [b]let Heretics steal the most powerful weapon in the two universes[/b] just to show that the brains were wrong. He later killed them all, even though he was in effect killing a part of himself and would lose his purer Insect thought processes.
He makes another hasty decision in initiating the Divine Cleansing early just so he, and not a cleansed being, would be the ultimate Divine Shadow. That led to his own downfall, since the Insect body wasn’t ready to emerge. The new Divine Shadow clearly displayed signs of unstable personality.
The Hirschfield Divine Shadow was like a Cyberman. He didn’t really [b]want[/b] to kill Kai. He just, for some moral or obsessive-compulsive reason felt that he [b]must[/b] kill Kai to make things right. The Gigeroff Divine Shadow [b]liked[/b] killing humans. He ordered two of [b]his own loyal followers[/b] to kill each other! Then, he tries to destroy the Lexx and its crew out of spite, even though they couldn’t destroy him. His mission, laid down by the other Divine Shadows going back to the original Insect survivor was to build a new Divine Insect Order after the Cleansing with the Giga Shadow’s larvae and pieces of his essence. The Lexx was irrelevent. Still, he went out of his way to destroy it, the Divine Predecessors, and the human crew slowly. He had a sadistic personality.
Finally, if the entry into an uncleansed human host [b]didn’t[/b] affect his personality, why was the scene there? If it really didn’t mean anything then it wouldn’t have been written, or would’ve been cut to leave room for relevent dialog and action. Its existence proves its importance.
I don’t want another argument here. You just have to realize that this [b]is[/b] a factor in His Divine Shadow’s actions in the movies.
[ 01-10-2001: Message edited by: DalekTek790 ]
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
I don’t want another argument here. You just have to realize that this [b]is[/b] a factor in His Divine Shadow’s actions in the movies.
okay sgt draino and aleck, after that weighty pronouncement there really isn’t anything to say [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] (or was that my way or the highway [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] )
Um Aleck, did you make any sense of what DT is trying to say, as I thought the original point he was making was that HDS and his predecessors were good, and his last post still did not make that point valid.
DT, seems to think we miss all that goes on in Lexx and states the obvious.
Yes we know that HDS last incarntion was affected by the bad job the clerics made of the new body’s cleansing, and that HDS insect essence changed from being a cold, but sensible villian, into a sadistic, warped HDS.
Still there is still absolutely no indication of HDS and the predecessors being good, simply put, the past incarnations believed in order and had a long laid out plan, which was upset by the chaos that was part of the final HDS.
But Aleck, I think the Santy Claus HDS makes more sense than anything DT has to say, maybe he should write his own series of Lexx, because his ramblings have nothing to do with the original.
SquishyThe idea that time is a cycle is part of Hindu beliefs, and part of Nietzsche philosophy. I am curious as to what your beliefs are that make you think such impossible, when they are quite a few who’d debate you on the matter. I’ll guess and say some sort of Christian.
“This whole cycle of time thing was a real original idea. I don’t think anything other than Lexx has ever had time end then begin again in a continuous loop. Doctor Who, Star Trek: The Next Generation, and The X-Files have all had time loop episodes, but they never suggested that all of time is a cycle. Of course it’s impossible, but it’s a neat idea.” -DalekTek790
Speaking to DalekTek of course.
quote:
Originally posted by :
The idea that time is a cycle is part of Hindu beliefs,…[b]sounds like [i]uberfrosch[/i] has been hitting the books in the ‘introduction to literature and philosophy’ class at college [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]gee dt…erm…zarathustra, time is not a cycle in hinduism, but the spiritual life of each being is in that the wheel of karma dictates that are you reborn again and again, to atone for past sins, or to inch your way up to unity with the godhead…as for nietzstche…i am aware of no such teaching… [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img][/b]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DalekTek790:
You’re not taking my interpretation seriously. Here is an excerp from [i]Lexx 1.1: I Worship His Shadow[/i] that illustrates my point-Okay, let’s take this blow-by-blow.
The humanized Shadow deviates considerably from the plan laid down by his (fully Insect) predecessors.
First off, neither His Shadow nor his Predecessors are “fully Insect.” By this, I mean their agenda is not the same as the Insect agenda. The Insect has “programmed” them with an agenda that will ultimately serve it, but not one that is purely Insect in nature. The Divine Order’s primary goal is conquest of humans, the Insects’ primary goal is the extinction of humans.
His Shadow and his Predecessors are not aware that their essence comes from an Insect, and they don’t really know what the Giga Shadow is. That’s why they spout off the same old answer every time. Programming.
[b]He’s opposing his former self![/b] He’s willing to destroy 20,000 planets containing his own subjects just to kill a few Heretics on one planet.
Actually, my impression was that the incomplete cleansing has left this particular Divine Shadow 75% bonkers. It’s not really killing with any purpose, it’s just killing for the sake of killing. Just like in the control center:
“Kill him. Thank you. Now, kill yourself.”
As an Insect, he logically considered that wasteful and was ready to conduct an investigation to determine the Heretics’ exact planet of origin, and not take any hasty and irrational action. The Divine Predecessors are quite shocked by the humanized Shadow’s change of plans.
Actually, the Insect thinking would be the more dead humans the merrier. It is actually the Divine Order agenda that found destroying all the planets shocking. After all, if they did that, they’d have nothing left to rule.
He also broke [b]his own rules[/b] by leaving the Cluster and putting the Predecessors on board the Lexx. He even [b]let Heretics steal the most powerful weapon in the two universes[/b] just to show that the brains were wrong.
This was probably a holdover from the host’s brain, which insists that time travels in a straight line, not a circle. The fact that he was rather bonkers led him to go to extreme and irrational risks to try to prove his beliefs about time were correct. He didn’t “let” them steal the Lexx, he just didn’t think they could possibly pull it off. After all, they didn’t have a key for it (or rather, he didn’t THINK they did).
In short, he does everything he’s been warned NOT to do, in order to prove time travels in a straight line, and not a circle. He decides to leave the Cluster, he lets Heretics get on the Lexx, and he employs the Last of the Brunnen-G to stop them. In short, he is a Divine Shadow who loves to tempt fate. And boy does it bite him in his Divine Arse.
He later killed them all, even though he was in effect killing a part of himself and would lose his purer Insect thought processes.
You mean after the Giga Shadow awakes? No, he kills them all because all the Predecessors are still somewhat human. They are human brains, and as a completely reborn Insect, his agenda became to destroy all human kind.
He makes another hasty decision in initiating the Divine Cleansing early just so he, and not a cleansed being, would be the ultimate Divine Shadow.
He tried to speed up the process of the Divine Rebirth because the Insect hibernating inside the Cluster made him. The Insect knew the Lexx was in the hands of its enemies, and wanted to be on the move asap, before the Lexx could come along and blow it up.
That led to his own downfall, since the Insect body wasn’t ready to emerge. The new Divine Shadow clearly displayed signs of unstable personality.
Oh yeah, he was definitely bonkers! But as soon as the Insect essence left that host brain, its intellect became pure Insect. Hence, HDS was “good” for a few minutes, while the essence was still inside a brain of which the evil section was destroyed. But after Kai crushed the brain, and the essence left, back to total evil Insect again.
The Hirschfield Divine Shadow was like a Cyberman. He didn’t really [b]want[/b] to kill Kai. He just, for some moral or obsessive-compulsive reason felt that he [b]must[/b] kill Kai to make things right.
Did Jeffrey Hirschfield play the voice of Kai-killing HDS? I didn’t know that! He did a really good job! In some ways, I like that HDS voice even better than Walter Borden!
But in my view, he definitely WANTED to kill Kai, and took pleasure in the killing. Just listen to the “Aaaaaah..” as he slides the knife into Kai’s guts. And the “punishment beyond death” he piles on top of that… oh yeah, he loves his work. But he is following the Divine Order agenda: Kill enemies of the Divine Order. This as opposed to the Insect agenda: Kill all humans.
The Gigeroff Divine Shadow [b]liked[/b] killing humans. He ordered two of [b]his own loyal followers[/b] to kill each other!
Yep. Bonkers! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Then, he tries to destroy the Lexx and its crew out of spite, even though they couldn’t destroy him.
Well, actually, after he screwed up and lost the Lexx, he kinda got “right in the head” and realized he was being goofy. The Insect essence impressed upon him that the Lexx was a very dangerous weapon to leave in the hands of enemies, and that the prophecy regarding Kai may be the biggest danger of all to the Divine Order’s future.
His mission, laid down by the other Divine Shadows going back to the original Insect survivor was to build a new Divine Insect Order after the Cleansing with the Giga Shadow’s larvae and pieces of his essence.
Well, actually that is the super-secret mission of the Insect, that is kept hidden from EVERYONE, even the Divine Shadows and Divine Predecessors. Because if wind of it ever got out to the citizens, HDS’s cover would be blown. Humans will follow another human with seemingly awesome powers, but they won’t follow an Insect.
The Lexx was irrelevent. Still, he went out of his way to destroy it, the Divine Predecessors, and the human crew slowly. He had a sadistic personality.
Well, building the Lexx is indeed irrelevent to the last surviving Insect. But to the programming of HDS, it’s a valuable tool to expand the Divine Order’s power.
But getting the Lexx out of enemy hands was a very high priority, both to HDS and to the Insect. HDS would prefer to get it back intact, but destruction is certainly an alternative.
Finally, if the entry into an uncleansed human host [b]didn’t[/b] affect his personality, why was the scene there? If it really didn’t mean anything then it wouldn’t have been written, or would’ve been cut to leave room for relevent dialog and action. Its existence proves its importance.
The nutty HDS was essential to making the story work. A normal HDS would have never allowed Heretics to board the Lexx so easily, would never have put the Predecessors on the Lexx, and would have sent every Divine Assassin he had after them EXCEPT the Last of the Brunnen-G. In short, if HDS hadn’t been so nutty, our heroes never could have pulled off their escape, and we’d have no TV show!
I don’t want another argument here. You just have to realize that this [b]is[/b] a factor in His Divine Shadow’s actions in the movies.
Frankly, I LOVE debating stuff like this. Anyone got anything to add?
Hey Sgt Draino, cracking post, just got two points that I think need to go under the microscope.
You wrote: His Shadow and his Predecessors are not aware that their essence comes from an Insect, and they don’t really know what the Giga Shadow is. That’s why they spout off the same old answer every time. Programming.
Strange one that, I don’t think HDS and his old buddies knew that it was insect essence, but then a couple of things that might go someway in in proving otherwise.
Like when HDS saw Kai’s craft for the first time (when Kai attacked the Megashadow), he seemed to have a sense of irony about the situation.
Also, the last HDS chopped off the top of his head to release the essence to go after Lexx and the crew, so he knew of the essence.
And I think the clerics must of known as well, they would realise that humans could not pass their essence on to a new body in the manner HDS did, so they must deduct, that if not human then it must be insect.
The divine clerics seemed like a tight knit bunch, specifically chosen to obey HDS…no matter if they realise he’s part insect.
As for HDS and predecessors not knowing, well I think they did, but like you said, they could not afford to let the truth slip, so they lied at every opportunity.You wrote:Oh yeah, he was definitely bonkers! But as soon as the Insect essence left that host brain, its intellect became pure Insect. Hence, HDS was “good” for a few minutes, while the essence was still inside a brain of which the evil section was destroyed. But after Kai crushed the brain, and the essence left, back to total evil Insect again.
Have to disagree on the ‘good’ bit, again the brian was lying to save it’s own skin, if Kai destroyed it then, the essence would not make it to the gigashadow, HDS’s brain was at their mercy and he had to play nice to survive.
You wrote: He tried to speed up the process of the Divine Rebirth because the Insect hibernating inside the Cluster made him. The Insect knew the Lexx was in the hands of its enemies, and wanted to be on the move asap, before the Lexx could come along and blow it up.
I don’t think the insect was too concerned over Lexx’s power to blow up the cluster, Lexx did just that, but to no avail. I think he wanted to get the rebirth done, so that he could finish the job of killing all humans, especially those on the Lexx, and possibly because he thought that Kai would have less success killing the Gigashadow. As a human host, HDS was vunerable, as the Gigashadow, Kai could not hurt him.
Excellent post Sgt Draino, very well observed points, and it’s nice to see you share the same view as me on the cycle of time, I was harping on about it like a mad thing about a month ago, but the nice people here thought it was a good idea, but nothing more…but it’s beginning to look like it maybe true.
Squishy [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]quote:
Originally posted by sgtdraino:
Anyone got anything to add?
Absolutely not. This is the *very* first time that DT has *ever* quoted evidence to support his theory, and as I suspected, it’s pretty shaky evidence to begin with. You’ve said everything I would have said, and better. As you’ve said, the only thing I think his being placed into an unclean human host resulted in was that it allowed him to make extremely grave errors that allowed him to be killed. It didn’t make him *evil*, as he already *was*…all of the plans he had set into motion up to that point can be characterized as evil, and the influence of the host mind just allowed him to be more *insane.* His plans were no longer hidden well behind veils of lies and deceit, their exposure is now risked because of the irrational actions of this HDS.
And, need I add that as usual, the evidence provided by DT is, for the most part, *speculation*? Which means that once again, a theory of his is being built upon gossamer. There’s no substance.–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by FX:
as for nietzstche…i am aware of no such teaching…
Actually, I think this is correct. I wouldn’t consider myself an absolute authority on Nietzschean philosophy as per the nuts and bolts, but isn’t the theory that the cycle of birth, struggle, death and rebirth of the Ubermensch is a never-ending one? That, like the Phoenix, the Superman must rise from his own ashes continually?
–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by Aleck:
This is the *very* first time that DT has *ever* quoted evidence to support his theory, and as I suspected, it’s pretty shaky evidence to begin with. You’ve said everything I would have said, and better. As you’ve said, the only thing I think his being placed into an unclean human host resulted in was that it allowed him to make extremely grave errors that allowed him to be killed. It didn’t make him *evil*, as he already *was*…all of the plans he had set into motion up to that point can be characterized as evil, and the influence of the host mind just allowed him to be more *insane.* His plans were no longer hidden well behind veils of lies and deceit, their exposure is now risked because of the irrational actions of this HDS.
And, need I add that as usual, the evidence provided by DT is, for the most part, *speculation*? Which means that once again, a theory of his is being built upon gossamer. There’s no substance.
Oh, never listen to ol’ Lee. He’s off his rocker, sein’ Insects. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] I’m sick of this shabby treatment! My opinions are just as valid as the next man’s, and my theories are all [b]based on the most logical interpretation of events and dialog[/b] on the show. You’re just too busy contradicting and misrepresenting me to seriously consider my points. I’ve brought all this up before, but you dismissed it out of hand.
quote:
Originally posted by Squishy:
DT, seems to think we miss all that goes on in Lexx and states the obvious.
It’s apparently not that obvious since Aleck missed it completely.
quote:
Yes we know that HDS last incarntion was affected by the bad job the clerics made of the new body’s cleansing, and that HDS insect essence changed from being a cold, but sensible villian, into a sadistic, warped HDS.
[b]Then what are we arguing about!?![/b] In this post you essentially agree with everything I say then insist I’m still wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt. Draino:
Actually, my impression was that the incomplete cleansing has left this particular Divine Shadow 75% bonkers. It’s not really killing with any purpose, it’s just killing for the sake of killing.
That’s what I say. We’re pretty much in agreement, here. His Shadow as the Divine Order leader was never the nicest of guys. He just had a logical plan for rebuilding his race and punishing the race that conducted the genocide. Then he was like the Cyber Leader, honorable and coldly logical. But then he hooked up with the psycho bald tatooed Lex Gigeroff host. Then he became like the Davros, unstable and sadistic.
quote:
The nutty HDS was essential to making the story work. A normal HDS would have never allowed Heretics to board the Lexx so easily, would never have put the Predecessors on the Lexx, and would have sent every Divine Assassin he had after them EXCEPT the Last of the Brunnen-G. In short, if HDS hadn’t been so nutty, our heroes never could have pulled off their escape, and we’d have no TV show!
Again, complete agreement.
quote:
First off, neither His Shadow nor his Predecessors are “fully Insect.” By this, I mean their agenda is not the same as the Insect agenda. The Insect has “programmed” them with an agenda that will ultimately serve it, but not one that is purely Insect in nature. The Divine Order’s primary goal is conquest of humans, the Insects’ primary goal is the extinction of humans.
His Shadow and his Predecessors are not aware that their essence comes from an Insect, and they don’t really know what the Giga Shadow is. That’s why they spout off the same old answer every time. Programming.
I disagree with that. The Divine Predecessors retein part of the human personality of the hosts, but are mostly Insect. The Cluster, Divine Order, and Insect goals are one and the same, since they were all created by the same person. The only possible difference is in how the public perceives them. I certainly believe all the Divine Shadows knew they were Insects. At least some of the clerics and bio-viziers knew as well. Mantrid seems quite aware that His Shadow was Insect all along, and the clerics knew exactly what the Divine Rebirth was. Some people had to know about the Divine Order’s Insect roots, otherwise the plan couldn’t work. But only an élite sect. Real hush-hush.
quote:
You mean after the Giga Shadow awakes? No, he kills them all because all the Predecessors are still somewhat human. They are human brains, and as a completely reborn Insect, his agenda became to destroy all human kind.
Another disagreement. The brains were more fully Insect than him. They knew the original agenda, and the original agenda had all them being assimilated into the Giga Shadow. That’s why they’re so glad he’s come. After the essence entered an uncleansed human host, the remaining host part was inextricably bonded to it. That’s why the Insect in [i]The Giga Shadow[/i], the disembodied essence in [i]Mantrid[/i], and Dr. Longbore in [i]Texx Lexx[/i] (okay, that last one is sort of speculative, but the others illustrate my point) were voiced by Walter Borden. The characteristics from the last host were carried with the essence, and could only be diluted by the passage into later Divine Shadow hosts, which never happened because of the premature Divine Cleansing.
quote:
He tried to speed up the process of the Divine Rebirth because the Insect hibernating inside the Cluster made him. The Insect knew the Lexx was in the hands of its enemies, and wanted to be on the move asap, before the Lexx could come along and blow it up.
I don’t think the Insect body made him do anything. I don’t think it knew anything. Mantrid said an Insect without essence was like a computer without programming. The Insect body didn’t think, it didn’t feel, it had no self-awareness or consciousness. Only its involuntary systems were functional. It was dormant. All the thoughts, memories, everything were in the Gigeroff/Borden brain. It wasn’t ready to be reborn, but was forced into coming out prematurely by the psychotic Divine Shadow. The power to destroy whole planets is insignificant compared to the awesome might of the Giga Shadow. The Lexx was for assisting the essence in its human host. It was of no use or threat after the Divine Rebirth. His Shadow just wanted revenge.
quote:
Hence, HDS was “good” for a few minutes, while the essence was still inside a brain of which the evil section was destroyed. But after Kai crushed the brain, and the essence left, back to total evil Insect again.
I didn’t quite understand that scene, but I’m pretty sure it was a ruse.
quote:
Did Jeffrey Hirschfield play the voice of Kai-killing HDS? I didn’t know that! He did a really good job! In some ways, I like that HDS voice even better than Walter Borden!
I’m not sure if Jeff was actually in the suit, but that was definately his voice in the [i]Fore Shadow[/i] scene and the brain conversation. The great thing about Jeffrey Hirschfield is none of his voices sound alike! You’d never notice the Divine Shadow in 790, the 790 in the Divine Predecessor, or either in the Potataho’en astronaut. Still, I think Walter Borden is one of the greatest vocal actors of all time. As His Divine Shadow/Dr. Longbore he sounds part Avery Brooks, part James Earl Jones, and part Stephen Hawking. Then as the Wozard he has a completely different voice that you would never recognize as His Shadow unless you knew it was the same vocalist. I know it didn’t make a bit of sense having Walter as the voice in [i]Brigadoom[/i], but I like him there anyway. It’s dramatic liscense. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Zarathustra:
I am curious as to what your beliefs are that make you think such impossible, when they are quite a few who’d debate you on the matter.
After the Big Crunch when our entire universe is collapsed into a tiny black hole, it’s quite conceivable that the micro-universe will then explode again in another Big Bang. However, given all the variables, it is infinitely improbable that the new universe will repeat the development of the last universe. The new Big Bang would form galaxies with stars and planets and life and civilizations, but they would be [b]different[/b] galaxies and stars and planets and life and civilizations. There isn’t any force that says things [b]have[/b] to happen a certain way, the formation and evolution of a universe is governed only by the laws of physics.
I’m not sure how pleased the topic originator is over this thread’s change in discussion. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
[ 01-10-2001: Message edited by: DalekTek790 ]
Yes we know that HDS last incarntion was affected by the bad job the clerics made of the new body’s cleansing, and that HDS insect essence changed from being a cold, but sensible villian, into a sadistic, warped HDS.
——————————————————————————–Then what are we arguing about!?! In this post you essentially agree with everything I say then insist I’m still wrong.
You must be reading someone else’s post then, I don’t agree with you on many things, the main being your lack of understanding when it comes to your attitude problem.
You said that HDS and the predecessors were once good, so how do you work out that me saying a cold, but sensible HDS means him being good?
You carry on with your deluded ideas, you are in the minority with your theories on this board, and you reached the stage of eccentric mad professor long before your time.
Almost everything you say contradicts the Lexx storyline and other’s perception of the story, Aleck is correct in saying that your imagination plays the most part in your theories, so if your gonna use your imagination to dream up plotlines, then state it in your posts, instead of maintaining that what you say is fact…I will certainly get off your back if you did, but then you never get the message.
Just for once try and see thing’s from the other side of the fence, you are wrong so often, but you never want to admit, and even though you believe you do admit it, you very rarely do.
No doubt you will see this as another attack, instead of some advice on the manner of your posts as is intended.
Squishyquote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Oh, never listen to ol’ Lee. He’s off his rocker, sein’ Insects. I’m sick of this shabby treatment! My opinions are just as valid as the next man’s, and my theories are all based on the most logical interpretation of events and dialog on the show. You’re just too busy contradicting and misrepresenting me to seriously consider my points. I’ve brought all this up before, but you dismissed it out of hand.
Oh, pshaw. Your opinions are *not* as valid as the next man’s, unless the next man’s opinions are based on nothing but supposition. You have taken a few lines of dialogue and read far more into them than anyone ever intended. You say that HDS was “good.” That he was “honorable” in his plans to rebuild his race and punish those whom he thought were guilty of destroying it (I won’t even go into how one can possibly consider lying and planned genocide outside of the context of a war to be either good or honorable). Jeez, DT, if you think that this is a “good” and “honorable” thing, I’m just wondering in what beer hall you’ll be holding your next Putsch. Again, I reiterate that you have *not* shown any evidence before this (give me a link to the post where you have cited this evidence previous, or post a quotation and the thread heading), and the evidence you have shown at this time is one scene of dialogue that only proves that HDS is *nuts* at the time the scene takes place, and the rest is supposition and inference that has (as I keep saying and you keep ignoring) NO BASIS IN THE TEXT. Stop playing your little martyr card (“I work so hard on my theories and no one listens to them…sniff, sniff…and that big bully just misrepresents me at every turn…sob…”).
The only way one can consider HDS a “good” and “honorable” character is if one interprets his actions through a filter based on a personal belief system that accepts his actions as “good” or “honorable.” And if one actually holds a personal belief system of this nature, then one needs more help than they’re going to get on a message board.
Of course, it must be considered that the person that views HDS as good and honorable is the same person that sees himself as a “good guy” and “humble” and can yet go around calling someone “a little slow” and someone else a “sick freak.” Sorry to break out of the tenets of “Lincoln-Douglas” debate, DT, but it’s obvious that trying to get you to stick to a rational interpretation of the text is impossible, and that your arguments are based entirely on your own personal belief system and world view. You’ve ceased to be objective, and are performing an analysis on a character through an exclusively subjective viewpoint. As I’ve pointed out, if you can’t allow your interpretation to be based exclusively on the text, it is *invalid* and must be dismissed.
As I’ve said, try this kind of analysis in one of your college courses and see what kind of marks you get.–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by Squishy:
You must be reading someone else’s post then, I don’t agree with you on many things, the main being your lack of understanding when it comes to your attitude problem.
You said that HDS and the predecessors were once good, so how do you work out that me saying a cold, but sensible HDS means him being good?
You carry on with your deluded ideas, you are in the minority with your theories on this board, and you reached the stage of eccentric mad professor long before your time.
Almost everything you say contradicts the Lexx storyline and other’s perception of the story, Aleck is correct in saying that your imagination plays the most part in your theories, so if your gonna use your imagination to dream up plotlines, then state it in your posts, instead of maintaining that what you say is fact…I will certainly get off your back if you did, but then you never get the message.
Just for once try and see thing’s from the other side of the fence, you are wrong so often, but you never want to admit, and even though you believe you do admit it, you very rarely do.
No doubt you will see this as another attack, instead of some advice on the manner of your posts as is intended.
..And speaking of sadistic personalities, hello, Squish. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I will repeat my question: What are we arguing about? What, of the things I’ve written under this topic, do you not agree with? You’ve not made that clear.
My thesis here is: [b]His Divine Shadow was a reasonable and logical antagonist until his essence entered an uncleansed human host.[/b] You seem to agree with that, but say you disagree with what I’m saying. What do you disagree with? I don’t understand. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]
And four of the five theories that have been concluded (as opposed to the ones we don’t know are right or wrong) have been correct. That’s an 80% accuracy rate. That’s pretty good. You might not understand as a casual [i]Lexx[/i] fan, but when I start following a sci-fi series, like [i]Star Trek[/i], [i]Doctor Who[/i], or [i]Lexx[/i] I get [b]really[/b] into it. I notice the subtle nuances of [i]Lexx[/i] that more casual viewers overlook.
And will you stop saying I’m arrogant?!? [img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img] You have no basis for that statement. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Now let’s turn this from an argument back into a discussion.
And four of the five theories that have been concluded (as opposed to the ones we don’t know are right or wrong) have been correct. That’s an 80% accuracy rate. That’s pretty good. You might not understand as a casual Lexx fan, but when I start following a sci-fi series, like Star Trek, Doctor Who, or Lexx I get really into it. I notice the subtle nuances of Lexx that more casual viewers overlook.
DT wrote: You might not understand being a casual Lexx fan…ummm arrogant much DT?, you are unbelievable, I was watching Lexx long before you pal, and though I won’t claim to know every single thing about Lexx (unlike you, your bigheadedness), I am as much a devout Lexx fan as anyone else on this board, so don’t say things you no nothing about…even though that’s impossible for you do too.
As for your accuracy rate, well everything you have said is apparent to everyone, you start off with the basics that we all know, then you imagination kicks off, and takes the plot in a direction where no one has a clue as to what you’re referring too.
You didn’t write Lexx and you don’t know what the truth is, so please stop making each post sound like your definition is exactly what the beans had in mind, you only make yourself look bigheaded and stupid, you don’t know the beans or what their thoughts on Lexx are, so you don’t know whether you’re theories have any credibility.DT Wrote:My thesis here is: His Divine Shadow was a reasonable and logical antagonist until his essence entered an uncleansed human host. You seem to agree with that, but say you disagree with what I’m saying. What do you disagree with? I don’t understand.
Of course you don’t understand, because you don’t want too.
Your thesis was based upon HDS being good, but in typical DT style, you have now decided that’s not the case, now saying that HDS is a logical and reasonable nemesis, at least have the decency to stand by what you originally said, instead of trying to cover your tracks with a new opinion.DT wrote:..And speaking of sadistic personalities, hello, Squish. I will repeat my question: What are we arguing about? What, of the things I’ve written under this topic, do you not agree with? You’ve not made that clear.
Ummm, I have made that clear on all the responses I’ve made, your theory of HDS being good, and the continuation the way you write your posts, trying to maintain your the good guy, when you keep writing posts that are going to antagonise people.
Stop writing in such a ‘I know better than you’ way, and people won’t think you’re arrogant, you have been told by people like me and Aleck to pack it in, and I accept you won’t take any notice of our opinion of you, but you have been told by numerous other’s in a very polite way…and yet you still wonder why you are called arrogant…just how many people does it take before you realise.
Most people are happy to acknowledge their faults, mine being that I can get very angry, very quickly, but you never want to admit your faults, even though everyone on the board tells you that you have them.
If you can’t see that calling me slow and saying that JJ is a sick freak is extremely offensive, then you really have a problem, but then you just choose to ignore it and move on, no apology ever given…are you going to answer as too why you never apologise.
You expect people to be nice to you, who wants to be nice to you when you don’t even have the common decency to admit when you have been out of order.
And now you say I’m not only slow, but sadistic as well…will you apologise for that, or will you just continue to be more insulting and arrogant?DT wrote:And will you stop saying I’m arrogant?!? You have no basis for that statement. Now let’s turn this from an argument back into a discussion.
How can anyone stop thinking you are arrogant, when you go and post another display of pure arrogance, the basis for that statement lies in what you write, so many people have told you, but you just refuse to entertain the possibility that you have an arrogant streak.
I would love to turn this back into a discussion, but it’s you that keep’s turning posts into an argument.
Do me a favour DT, go and find a newbie and call them a sick freak, I’m not going to say anything, but just for interests sake, let’s see what response you get…if they find that offensive, then will you finally get the message…or are we all going to have to continue bashing our heads against a brick wall, thinking ‘when is he ever going to learn?’
To be honest, if I was moderator here (no offence to FX and Blackcloud), I would have kicked you from the board, for calling a newbie a sick freak, it’s such a pity that a friendly board is let down by someone such as yourself.
I always make a point of welcoming new people, and I don’t recall a time that you have welcomed a newbie, instead choosing to be insulting, possibly because you think you are better than everyone else here…well you’re not, and your posts being as they are, just make people think very little of you.
Admittedly, you can make the board juicy, but all too often you over step the bounds, but I really think it is beyond you to converse with people on pleasant level, your personel skills really need some work.
SquishyWelcome back DT! Yes I know you’ve been back for a while but the board just wasn’t the same without you and Squishy and Aleck debating this stuff!
This is great, a great way to take my mind off things and I will join the discussion when my brain is less fried.
*Hypatia takes an extra brain out of the freezer to warm up, her current brain is quite fried*
Edited to add; Squishums and other U.Kers, the summary of MB is under somone elses topic ‘Magic Baby spoilers’[ 30-09-2001: Message edited by: Hypatia ]
quote:
Originally posted by Aleck:
Actually, I think this is correct. but isn’t the theory that the cycle of birth, struggle, death and rebirth of the Ubermensch is a never-ending one? That, like the Phoenix, the Superman must rise from his own ashes continually?
–Aleck
absolutely dearie, i am sorry i traded brevity for clarity on that point…a small niggling difference that i was hoping to make clear; the cyclic struggle of the ubermensch, like the souls on the karmic wheel, is not the same as time [b]itself[/b]being a circle…just as history does not, per se, repeat itself… but the mistakes we, as fallible humans, make, repeat themselves endlessly…in other words, we do not necessarily learn from our mistakes, and thus recreate the same scenarios over and over again with monotonous regularity, so that history [b]seems[/b]to repeat itself…i hope that is clearer…and that the pedantic point made here might not be lost on certain people [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by FX:
absolutely dearie, i am sorry i traded brevity for clarity on that point…a small niggling difference that i was hoping to make clear; the cyclic struggle of the ubermensch, like the souls on the karmic wheel, is not the same as time [b]itself[/b]being a circle…just as history does not, per se, repeat itself… but the mistakes we, as fallible humans, make, repeat themselves endlessly…in other words, we do not necessarily learn from our mistakes, and thus recreate the same scenarios over and over again with monotonous regularity, so that history [b]seems[/b]to repeat itself…i hope that is clearer…and that the pedantic point made here might not be lost on certain people [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Hehe, seems to sum up a certain individual quite nicely!!!
Squishy[img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
..And speaking of sadistic personalities, hello, Squish.
Ahhh, a DT reply that resorts to name-calling and arrogant “I know more about the show than you do, you casual viewer” attitude. Par for the course, really.
quote[quote]My thesis here is: His Divine Shadow was a reasonable and logical antagonist until his essence entered an uncleansed human host.[/quote]
You’re changing stance mid-stream again, DT. Your thesis was that HDS was good and honorable. Reasonable and logical are not the same thing. And I’d still take issue with “reasonable.” Of course, lying and genocide are *always* reasonable, honorable and good.
quote[quote]You seem to agree with that, but say you disagree with what I’m saying. What do you disagree with? I don’t understand. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img][/quote]
Well, since you’ve changed stance mid-stream, it’s hard to pin down exactly what anyone is disagreeing with.
quote[quote]when I start following a sci-fi series, like [i]Star Trek[/i], [i]Doctor Who[/i], or [i]Lexx[/i] I get *really* into it. I notice the subtle nuances of [i]Lexx[/i] that more casual viewers overlook.[/quote]
I could make a statement about obsessive types reading their own personal meaning into innocuous entertainments, but it’s too obvious. Let’s just say that I’m glad that he’s not listening to the White Album and living out on Spahn Ranch in Death Valley.
quote[quote][QB]And will you stop saying I’m arrogant?!? [img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img] You have no basis for that statement. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] QB][/quote]
Don’t make me pull out the list of evidence again, DT. And you’re one to speak of statements without basis…
–Aleck
when I start following a sci-fi series, like Star Trek, Doctor Who, or Lexx I get *really* into it. I notice the subtle nuances of Lexx that more casual viewers overlook.
——————————————————————————–I could make a statement about obsessive types reading their own personal meaning into innocuous entertainments, but it’s too obvious. Let’s just say that I’m glad that he’s not listening to the White Album and living out on Spahn Ranch in Death Valley.
oh aleck….fx shakes her head…weren’t [b]you[/b] defending the bobby beausoleil soundtrack to lucifer rising to me a few weeks ago [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] besides, dt is too young to catch that particular allusion [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
[ 30-09-2001: Message edited by: FX ]
FX posted:…sounds like uberfrosch has been hitting the books in the ‘introduction to literature and philosophy’ class at college gee dt…erm…zarathustra, time is not a cycle in hinduism, but the spiritual life of each being is in that the wheel of karma dictates that are you reborn again and again, to atone for past sins, or to inch your way up to unity with the godhead…as for nietzstche…i am aware of no such teaching…
Fair enough assumption, since I hadn’t bothered to register before now, but I’m not Zarathustra.
quote:
Originally posted by uberfrosch:
Fair enough assumption, since I hadn’t bothered to register before now, but I’m not Zarathustra.
since frosch is slang for freshman, and uber obviously means super, uberfrosch could be reasonably mean ‘super freshman’…dt has just started college, and the posts by you and zara and dt have the same tone;i assumed dt was up to his old tricks of posting under pseudonyms…if this is not the case, i am sorry, and welcome you to the sadboard, an obviously insane place [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]…if it is the case, dt stop being annoying x3 [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Another disagreement. The brains were more fully Insect than him. They knew the original agenda, and the original agenda had all them being assimilated into the Giga Shadow. That’s why they’re so glad he’s come. After the essence entered an uncleansed human host, the remaining host part was inextricably bonded to it. Thay’s why the Insect in The Giga Shadow, the disembodied essence in Mantrid, and Dr. Longbore in Texx Lexx (okay, that last one is sort of speculative, but the others illustrate my point) were voiced by Walter Borden. The characteristics from the last host were carried with the essence, and could only be diluted by the passage into later Divine Shadow hosts, which never happened because of the premature Divine Cleansing.
The Predecessors and HDSs are programmed to look forward to the Divine Rebirth as a good thing, as their “destiny,” (and it is), but beyond that they really don’t know anything about it:
“What is the Giga Shadow?”
“The Giga Shadow is the end, and it is the beginning. First will come the Cleansing, that will feed the Rebirth. The Giga Shadow is the new life beyond order. A time of rejoicing, our destiny.”When the day arrives, they think they’re in for something great. Surprise! The Giga Shadow is an Insect, and will destroy anything remotely human.
The Divine Order seems to operate largely on a need-to-know basis. Citizens never question His Shadow’s wisdom and guidance, military officers never question His Shadow’s orders. They will fly straight into fractal cores, shoot each other, and even kill themselves if HDS tells them to.
The clerics don’t really know anything either. As the Time Prophet says:
“Clerics, loyal to His Shadow, had long prayed for the rebirth. For them, there was no higher calling than to be one of the eight chosen to oversee the ritual. And now, after thousands of years, eight were finally called forth. But fear of the Divine Order had chilled the blood of much of human kind, and seeds of doubt had taken root in the most unlikely soil.”
And as the lead Cleric says, “Ours is not to question. Ours is not to understand. Ours is to feed Order.” And as one of the Cleric geezers says, “The glory of the Divine Mystery takes precedence over a single life.”
And HDS and the Predecessors definitely do NOT know what the Giga Shadow is, or of the Insect origin of their essence (or even what protoblood is). How do I know? Because Kai did not know. Kai had no idea he was fighting the last surviving Insect, and he possessed all of HDS’s memories, from killing the predecessor, and killing HDS himself. In fact, right after he kills HDS, Kai announces, “He knew nothing of the Giga Shadow either.”
And the Giga Shadow is not devoid of Insect Essence. As he tells Kai at the end of 4.0/1.4, “I passed some of my essence to humans…” The operative word is “some,” as in, not all. It seems apparent from the series that Insect Essence is nearly infinitely divisible into separate entities (or can coalesce into a single huge entity). the essence can enter and control Yottskry, but still leave a little bit in Kai as well. And, as Mantrid explains, Insect parents transfer some of their essence to their offspring in order to bring them fully active. In fact, the Insect Essence may be a bigger part of the Insect Civilization than the giant Insects themselves. Perhaps the real intelligence is the Essence, and the Insects are just a convenient and powerful host body.
Well, at least it makes sense now. I had an exhausting weekend of five hour drives to and from my great aunt’s memorial service, so I was pretty tired when I saw my handle mentioned in a thread I was fairly sure I hadn’t posted on previously.
I don’t mean for my posts to sound condescending, they’re just my rambling way of trying to organize my own thoughts, and anyone is welcome to pick them apart if they deserve it. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Actually, Dalektek was. It’s German for superfrog, a nickname I somehow picked up… I hadn’t even thought of the freshman connotation though it’s pretty obvious once pointed out to me… d’oh! My college days are behind me, at least for now. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Sgt. Draino-You make some good points. However, I think His Divine Shadow was aware of his Insect origins. Kai may have absorbed all of His Divine Shadow’s memories into his brain, but he couldn’t access them all at will. In [i]The Giga Shadow[/i] a machine was necessary for him to remember something the Hirschfield Divine Shadow did, and that was the brain he crushed. And, even though he said in [i]Walpurgis Night[/i] that a memory he absorbed told him about Earth and the super-assassin, he didn’t recognize Earth immediately despite the fact that one of the people he had the memories of must’ve travelled there or known of it.
Now, about the brain in [i]The Giga Shadow[/i]. Kai finds this brain with the left frontal lobe damaged. It talks like Walter Borden and tells him it’s good but wants to die. Kai crushes it, and absorbs its memory, but says it knew nothing of the Giga Shadow. He walks away, and Yottskry stumbles over there, finds [b]another[/b] brain with the left frontal lobe damaged (“Whoa, whoa, whoooaa! Nobody said anything about [b]two[/b] brains…” [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] ), picks it up, and Walter Borden starts talking in his head. I’m not sure how there were two brains laying around (maybe you can help me there), but I think the one Kai crushed was a decoy, containing only part of His Shadow’s intellect. Kai crushed it, and it gave him a sense of closure, so he left without noticing the brain that contained the whole of His Shadow’s thoughts, memories, and impetus.
Also, in [i]Mantrid[/i] the Insect essence in Kai recounts its history. So whatever Kai observed had full knowledge of being an Insect and of the Divine Rebirth. That essence couldn’t’ve come from the Giga Shadow. It was from either when Kai killed the host body in [i]I Worship His Shadow[/i] or crushed one of the twin brains in [i]The Giga Shadow[/i]. Either way, it means some manifestation of His Shadow [b]before[/b] the Divine rebirth knew about the Insect stuff.
By the way, this isn’t related, and everybody might’ve noticed it already, but when the essence comes out of the Gigeroff Divine Shadow when the skull cap comes out and swirls around Kai, if you watch it frame by frame you can see jointed insect legs within the smoky “essence” trying to strangle our favorite dead assassin. I thought that was a nice touch.
Now, I don’t think anybody can contest that the Insects and His Divine Shadow could divide their essence for different hosts (of course I always say that and then I get a post from Aleck… [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ), but I think all of the original Insect’s essence left the body. Why? From [i]Mantrid[/i]: “I survived by transferring my essence, my thoughts, my memories, my…[b]everything[/b] into a human host.” All the essence went into the humans and the Insect was left dormant.
I also think [b]some[/b] members of the Divine Order knew His Divine Shadow was not human. I mean, they were in charge of transferring the essence and the Divine Rebirth. And the bio-viziers were some of the greatest minds in the universe, a few of them must’ve found out if they weren’t told.
Another thing I noticed: the Seal of the Divine Order which appears in [i]I Worship His Shadow, The Giga Shadow, Texx Lexx[/i] and [i]Walupurgis Night[/i] as well as the beginning credits and season enders is based on the insect body. When the Giga Shadow rolled up, its profile looked almost identical to the aperture symbol, with seven radial segments in a dull silver color. Y’all might’ve noticed that already, though. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
F.X.-Why would I post under a pseudonym to talk to myself? [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
[img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img] “ttennebdeirubi” [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]
[ 01-10-2001: Message edited by: DalekTek790 ]
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Now, I don’t think anybody can contest that the Insects and His Divine Shadow could divide their essence for different hosts (of course I always say that and then I get a post from Aleck… [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ), but I think all of the original Insect’s essence left the body. Why? From [i]Mantrid[/i]: “I survived by transferring my essence, my thoughts, my memories, my…[b]everything[/b] into a human host.” All the essence went into the humans and the Insect was left dormant.
If you remember correctly, I said the same thing in one of the first posts I made. HDS has always been able to pass along bits and pieces of his essence. This doesn’t mean, of course, that the part is indistinguishable from the whole. Which is why I disagree with your hypothesis that HDS must return because his last incarnation wasn’t killed by Kai. The bits of HDS’ essence contain only parts of his personality and being. The part that Kai received was only *part* of HDS’ full essence, the part that contained his agenda to kill all of humanity. This was passed into the insect offspring, which in turn only had part of its essence removed and combined with Mantrid’s, as the insect was still alive and vital *after* Mantrid became a new species of man/insect/machine hybrid. If all of the essence had passed on, the insect would have lapsed into dormancy. Therefore, the being known as His Divine Shadow was, indeed, killed by Kai. The narration at the beginning of “Mantrid” is a literary contrivance, an easy method of telling what came before, and its statement that HDS lives on in Kai is directly contradicted by the text itself. It’s sloppy writing and continuity, but the text states that Kai never received all of HDS’ essence.
quote[quote]I also think some members of the Divine Order knew His Divine Shadow was not human. I mean, they were in charge of transferring the essence and the Divine Rebirth. And the bio-viziers were some of the greatest minds in the universe, a few of them must’ve found out if they weren’t told.[/quote]
Not entirely neccessarily. For one thing, it’s never hinted at in the text that anyone knew that HDS was an insect. Also, there are many high-ranking clergy members that are not aware of everything that the Catholic church has hidden about the origins of Christianity. There are high-ranking government officials that don’t know the truth about any number of things. There are high-ranking businessmen that aren’t aware of secret deals made by their CEOs. Just because someone has been instructed to know everything they need to know to perform their task, that doesn’t mean that they know *all* there is to know. Some of the Bio-Viziers, perhaps. But I doubt that the clerics knew anything. They acted on faith, which discourages the kind of scientific speculation that would lead to a revelation of this sort. As far as they probably knew, HDS was just a godlike being that could pass on his soul to another host, and they didn’t have to know anything about insect biology to believe that.
quote:
[img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img] “ttennebdeirubi” [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]
I have no idea which Bennett you’re referring to.
–Aleck
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Sgt. Draino-You make some good points. However, I think His Divine Shadow was aware of his Insect origins.Thanks! And you’ve made me rethink my theory a bit (see below).
Kai may have absorbed all of His Divine Shadow’s memories into his brain, but he couldn’t access them all at will. In [i]The Giga Shadow[/i] a machine was necessary for him to remember something the Hirschfield Divine Shadow did, and that was the brain he crushed. And, even though he said in [i]Walpurgis Night[/i] that a memory he absorbed told him about Earth and the super-assassin, he didn’t recognize Earth immediately despite the fact that one of the people he had the memories of must’ve travelled there or known of it.
All true. I suppose it is technically possible Kai just “couldn’t remember” about the origin of the Giga Shadow… but I still think the bulk of the evidence indicates HDS and his Predecessors simply didn’t know. HDS was talking about the Giga Shadow right before Kai killed him and got his memories, yet right afterwards Kai seems pretty sure of himself when he states HDS didn’t know anything. And the repeated “programmed” answer of the Kai-killing Predecessor (“The Giga Shadow is the end, and it is the beginning…”) both lead me to think the brains really don’t know.
Now, about the brain in [i]The Giga Shadow[/i]. Kai finds this brain with the left frontal lobe damaged. It talks like Walter Borden and tells him it’s good but wants to die. Kai crushes it, and absorbs its memory, but says it knew nothing of the Giga Shadow. He walks away, and Yottskry stumbles over there, finds [b]another[/b] brain with the left frontal lobe damaged (“Whoa, whoa, whoooaa! Nobody said anything about [b]two[/b] brains…” [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] ), picks it up, and Walter Borden starts talking in his head. I’m not sure how there were two brains laying around (maybe you can help me there), but I think the one Kai crushed was a decoy, containing only part of His Shadow’s intellect. Kai crushed it, and it gave him a sense of closure, so he left without noticing the brain that contained the whole of His Shadow’s thoughts, memories, and impetus.
My impression of the scene was that there was only one brain. It was crushed by Kai, then later picked up by Yottsky. The Insect Essence in 2.1 says as much: “Kai crushed the brain of my last human host…” True, when Yottsky picks up the brain, it doesn’t really look that damaged, but I’m convinced the beans intended it to be the same brain. After all, where would a second brain come from? There was a botched assassination attempt, and one brain (HDS) was left lying on the floor. I’m guessing the Insect Essence managed to keep hiding itself inside the crushed brain, even though the brain was largely nonfunctional. Since we’ve seen the essence get carried around inside a completely empty skull, I suppose it is possible.
Also, in [i]Mantrid[/i] the Insect essence in Kai recounts its history. So whatever Kai observed had full knowledge of being an Insect and of the Divine Rebirth. That essence couldn’t’ve come from the Giga Shadow. It was from either when Kai killed the host body in [i]I Worship His Shadow[/i].
Well, the Predecessor crushed in 1.0 no longer possessed any Insect Essence, so obviously it’s Giga Shadow.
or crushed one of the twin brains in [i]The Giga Shadow[/i]. Either way, it means some manifestation of His Shadow [b]before[/b] the Divine rebirth knew about the Insect stuff.
Well, not quite. It means the Insect Essence definitely knew about the Insect stuff. But you still make a good point. Here is what I would conclude from this:
It still seems plain to me that Divine Predecessors didn’t know about the Giga Shadow. Kai concluded from crushing HDS’s brain that he didn’t know either. However, most of the Insect Essence remained in the brain. Later this Essence “possesses” Yottskry. Kai questions him about the Giga Shadow, but he doesn’t seem to know either.
So what’s the answer? All memories about the truth of the Giga Shadow remain WITHIN the Insect Essence. When that essence is transfered from an old HDS to a new HDS, those memories go with it. And the Insect Essence must be able to choose what knowledge it imparts to its host. Thus, a pure Divine Shadow (the brain is cleansed, there is only Insect Essence) remembers the Insect Wars (“an Insect… curious.”), while a possessed mind (Yottskry, Kai) does not, and a Predecessor (no Insect Essence remaining) also does not.
Now, I don’t think anybody can contest that the Insects and His Divine Shadow could divide their essence for different hosts (of course I always say that and then I get a post from Aleck… [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ), but I think all of the original Insect’s essence left the body. Why? From [i]Mantrid[/i]: “I survived by transferring my essence, my thoughts, my memories, my…[b]everything[/b] into a human host.” All the essence went into the humans and the Insect was left dormant.
Actually, he says, “I passed my essence, my soul, my intelligence, my everything into a human host.” But keep in mind this is the same essence telling us that, “My prematurely reborn body was killed by the Lexx,” which is pretty darn inaccurate! Strictly speaking, the Essence contradicts what it said earlier about passing “some” of its essence to humans. UNLESS it is possible for the Insect to pass only “some” of its essence to humans, but still pass its soul, intelligence, and everything along with “some” essence. Perhaps it’s more of a Xerox copy thing. It passes some of its essence, and duplicates its soul, intellegence, etc. into the host.
I also think [b]some[/b] members of the Divine Order knew His Divine Shadow was not human. I mean, they were in charge of transferring the essence and the Divine Rebirth. And the bio-viziers were some of the greatest minds in the universe, a few of them must’ve found out if they weren’t told.
Thodin calls the Divine Order a “false religion,” and I think that term is quite accurate. Citizens and Clerics alike revel in the “Divine Mystery.” To them, HDS is a god, with godlike powers. Their’s is not to question or understand, but only to serve Order. And keep in mind that the Insect Wars have “faded into a hazy past” (i.e. mostly been forgotten).
It would seem from 2.1 that Mantrid indeed DID learn that protoblood comes from Insects, and seems to know quite a bit about the Insects. Of course, we also know Mantrid was regarded by HDS as a very dangerous man, and locked away. Perhaps this knowledge of Insects was precisely why. Probably the only reason he wasn’t cleansed, was that HDS still had use for Mantrid’s brilliance.
Another thing I noticed: the Seal of the Divine Order which appears in [i]I Worship His Shadow, The Giga Shadow, Texx Lexx[/i] and [i]Walupurgis Night[/i] as well as the beginning credits and season enders is based on the insect body. When the Giga Shadow rolled up, its profile looked almost identical to the aperture symbol, with seven radial segments in a dull silver color.
Oh yes! I think this was definitely a little “in-joke” courtesy of the last surviving Insect. It created the Divine Order, and so it created their symbol in its own image.
excellent reply sgt draino! sure wish the beans would break with their glib tradition and flesh out the whole insect wars issue…i know it’s kind of star wars prequel, but it is an intriguing piece of back history that we will never really know about…
uberfrosch, condolences on your loss and weekend…the tone i was referring to was not so much condescending as sort of detached …welcome to the board, and as you can see, we’re all picking at each other’s posts all the time! btw, was my assumption about your handle correct, or is there another story behind it? [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]There’s some real interesting speculations in the various posts above–I decided to add some thoughts, but they’re kind of a selective mish mash partially off the subject with no overall point except to confuse myself and others. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
It’s fun to read your disagreements on the fine points of insect lore.
Also, I know the various quotes below are from different people, but I’m too lazy to sort them out.[b]
quote:
Kai may have absorbed all of His Divine Shadow’s memories into his brain, but he couldn’t access them all at will. In [i]The Giga Shadow[/i] a machine was necessary for him to remember something the Hirschfield Divine Shadow did, and that was the brain he crushed. And, even though he said in [i]Walpurgis Night[/i] that a memory he absorbed told him about Earth and the super-assassin, he didn’t recognize Earth immediately despite the fact that one of the people he had the memories of must’ve travelled there or known of it.
[/b]
I think that when you consider Kai’s reaction to anything dealing with the insects, if anything in either of the Divine Shadows whose brains he crushed was aware of the insects, he would have been aware of it very quickly.
I put down the use of the protoblood projector in Gigashadow to the fact that Kai hadn’t had much practice yet in sorting through all the memories–and the fact that the information he was looking for wasn’t a clear memory–the Divine Shadow didn’t know much about protoblood either.
As the series has gone on Kai seems to be able to access memories as the information becomes relevant to the situation. Which makes sense when you consider there is no other way to process the amount of information that the thousands of memories contain. It’s also a clever and convenient plot device–maybe not quite on the level of “you didn’t ask” but close! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Also, he didn’t actually say that the memories told him about Earth, but that they told him of a deeper darkness than his own(paraphrase)–which would be the Divine Executioner. From HDS’ memories he knew Vlad had been set loose to hunt him, but until he ran into Dr. Longbore, he would have had no reason to think that Vlad made it to the Dark Universe. I’m trying to remember, but I don’t think Kai or any of his memories recognized Earth, in LBP I think he just said it was in the darkest part of the dark zone [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] (bad enough)[b]
quote[quote]My impression of the scene was that there was only one brain. It was crushed by Kai, then later picked up by Yottsky. The Insect Essence in 2.1 says as much: “Kai crushed the brain of my last human host…” True, when Yottsky picks up the brain, it doesn’t really look that damaged, but I’m convinced the beans intended it to be the same brain. [/quote][/b]
I agree it’s supposed to be the same brain. Forgive me for not having the exact quote, but my impression was that the essence hid from Kai because it wasn’t sure Kai would do its bidding, but another host like Yottskry would–carry the essence to the Gigashadow and fully animate it. And just in case (a bug with a plan!!), it hid a small segment of itself in Kai. It really doesn’t pay to look at this part too closely since very little of it makes sense. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] From the scene in IWHS where the essence is transferred from a dying HDS to the not fully cleansed brain of the last HDS we can assume that the transfer of the essence has to be made from a living being to a living being (the same assumption is made in Mantrid). So how the heck does the essence manage to survive for any length of time in a dead assassin? I won’t even mention Yottskry and just say that maybe his body is still warm. And if it thinks that when it’s whole it can’t control Kai in Gigashadow, how can a small piece of it control him in Mantrid? Personally, I was enjoying myself and just decided to go with the flow. [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]
[b]
quote[quote]Thus, a pure Divine Shadow (the brain is cleansed, there is only Insect Essence) remembers the Insect Wars (“an Insect… curious.”), while a possessed mind (Yottskry, Kai) does not, and a Predecessor (no Insect Essence remaining) also does not.[/quote][/b]
I still think that *no* HDS has knowledge of the insect essence within him. When he says “an Insect…curious” I assumed that the insect wars and the weapons used in those wars truly had faded into memory. If the insect part in him were conscious it would surely recognize any remnants of the insect wars. I figure the insect essence is the Id of the HDSs.
[b]
quote[quote]It would seem from 2.1 that Mantrid indeed DID learn that protoblood comes from Insects, and seems to know quite a bit about the Insects. Of course, we also know Mantrid was regarded by HDS as a very dangerous man, and locked away. Perhaps this knowledge of Insects was precisely why. Probably the only reason he wasn’t cleansed, was that HDS still had use for Mantrid’s brilliance.[/quote][/b]
That makes a lot of sense. The insect subconscious in HDS recognized the danger in Mantrid’s study of the insects–and of couse this wasn’t common knowledge since Mantrid was unlikely to share his discoveries with the other bio viziers.
elmey
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