WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS! part 2 (Warning! this topic is very c
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this topic was originated by Super_Joe_Yamaman
[b]WARNING! This topic is very controversial! Flaming (personal attacks) and racial slurs will be dealt with immediately![/b]
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G[i]i will copy the last few posts here for continuity.[/i]
SadGeezer
Administrator
Member # 3
posted 12-04-2002 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by Nirvanah Rimmer:
… if they said march, you did…if they said go laugh at those Jews, you did…….if they said put your kids in the Hitler youth ,you did.
——————————————————————————–I think you’ll find in most cases they didn’t. The Nazis used to kidnap kids and send them of to Hitler Youth camp. I had a neighbour once who told me what it was like when she was taken at the age of 6 (and like all the other kids in her group, it was without her parents knowledge). One of the scariest stories I’ve heard!
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Posts: 1006 | From: Centauri Prime | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: LoggedFlamegrape
Committed SadGeezer
Member # 289
posted 12-04-2002 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by bonnee:
[QB]One of the most shocking ways to illustrate the appalling mess of lineage and legitimacy is via the Holocaust. There is a strain within Judaic thought that urges the final solution was God’s way of resolving the problem of the Jews relation to a historical homeland. It helped – a rabbi tells me – precipitate their return to a homeland (Isreal was established again in the aftermath of world world two, and is said to be partly the result of the West’s guilt/shame in allowing the Holocaust to occur on its own soil). In so doing, the historical persecution of the Jews by one religion (Christianity) historically vindicated Zionism as a form of prophesy/fullfillment of a religious promise, leading to the displacement of the Palestinian people on (so called) Arab/Muslim soil, allowing the West to be seen to play another role in the religious persucution of a different people (the breaking of their promise). Consequently, the Arabs view the West as being involved in a dispute that doesn’t (alledgely) concern them, and it is believed that if it wasn’t for Western support, Isreal would not be there in the first place. The fact that all this occurs against a background of pan Arabism (resulting from Western colonialism of the previous century) complicates the issue even further.
——————————————————————————–All of that is pretty much true. I’d just like to add that there is no doubt that without Western support, modern Israel would not exist. It’s not just a belief among Arabs. It’s a hard fact.
On top of the guilt of the holocaust, there was this Cold War fear that Egypt was going commie. When Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal, seized the Sinai Penninsula, and blocked Israeli access to the Gulf of Aqaba, the West was terrified. (Can you think of anything worse than fundamentalist Islamic communists?) Eventually the conflict with Israel and Egypt was resolved. But not before massive Western support was given to the Israelis.
The West has always been stuck between a rock and a hard place.
One thing that has dramatically improved is the Arab view of Israel. At first, they vowed the destruction of Israel. Now they are actually recognizing their right to exist. But the Palestinian issue remains.
I’m forced to agree with the Western view that the terrorism must end. If I only understood what the Muslims expect to happen as a result of the terrorism. Yes, it draws attention to the issues. But there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing.
But I also think that Israel needs to back off. Sharon’s ultra-rightwing government is becoming dangerous. Their extreme actions work against them because it’s generating Western sympathy for their hated foes, the Palestinians.
What a mess.
[ 12-04-2002: Message edited by: Flamegrape ]
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Posts: 745 | From: Southern United States | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: LoggedNirvanah Rimmer
Committed SadGeezer
Member # 333
posted 12-04-2002 06:15 PM
——————————————————————————–wow, we sure are opinionated. huh? I’d just like to say that I wish that other groups, with more power over this subject that us, could discuss things nicely like we have been doing. Honestly, when I saw this thread, I sighed and thought to myself “well, here goes the end of Sadgeezer” ,after all, I’ve seen other larger sites crumble over smaller issues than this. I think you have all handled this subject tastefully and solidly. But, may I suggest, we go over to the bar and have a refil? IMHO, people stay polite to one another more easily after a pint or two , (but not 3 ,let’s not push it)
——————–There’s no Earthly way of knowing, which direction we are going.There’s no knowing where we’re rowing or which way the river’s flowing.Is it raining is it snowing is a hurricane a blowing?
Not a speck of light is showing so the danger must be growing .Are the fires of hell a glowing ,is the grisly Reaper mowing? YES! The danger must be growing for the rowers keep on rowing and they’re certainly not showing any signs that they are slowing!!!! – Willy Wonka——————————————————————————–
Posts: 90 | From: my house | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: LoggedDeliena
Aspiring SadGeezer
Member # 537
posted 12-04-2002 09:23 PM
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Why are americans so afraid of communism?quote:
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Can you think of anything worse than fundamentalist Islamic communists?
——————————————————————————–I can think of something worse. Militarised Fascists – oh wait, we’ve already seen what they are capable of.
Few little known facts about the communist state of Cuba:
The coup in which Castro seized power, was bloodless and supported by the majority of the people of Cuba.
Fidel Castro is still supported by the vast majority of the people of Cuba, and were free elections be held there tomorrow would win by a HUGE majority.
Everyone in Cuba can read and write NO OTHER FIRST WORLD COUNTRY CAN SAY THIS. 100% literacy ENSURES access to information, education and opportunity.
Everyone in Cuba is feed – NO STATE IN THE US, NOWHERE IN THE UK OR EUROPE can say that.
Communism isn’t a terrifying thing. And bear in mind that if you are thinking of Russia in the USSR days then you are thinking of Stalinist Communism, which is a perversion of Marxism.
It is so much a perversion of Marxism in fact that Karl Marx once said ‘If that is Marxism, then I am not a Marxist’ of the Russian Revolution.
I realise the primary conversation on this current topic is religon – but bigotry in the form of political expression is just as bad.
Plus there are quite a few ‘communist’ Zionists. Visit a Kabutz, a truely utopian communist (with a small ‘c’) environment.
Just an alternate point of view after all – what’s so scary about that? We’ve all said there’s nothing inherently scary about worshiping God in a different way. So why is social structuring any different?
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You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment….
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Posts: 20 | From: GLASGOW, Scotland | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged[i]i would again like to thank you sadgeezers for discussing this topic in a reasonable and civilized way.[/i] [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
[ 12-04-2002: Message edited by: mary beth ]
[img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img] All right, that’s IT! I originally created this post to ask for a little tolerance for us Muslims. Instead, its turned into another bloody Middle East. So I’m going to ask the administrators for a favor. It’s time for this topic to be closed. Permanently.
However, I must take the blame for what has happened here. Placing such a post was bound to have attracted attention, and I regret not closing the topic as soon as I posted it, so [i]this[/i] Muslim at least, is going to make peace with his enemies. I do not want to be the Osama of the Sadgeezer board and destroy all that the people here have worked so hard to achieve as well as the goodwill of non-Muslims towards us. There has been a lot of friendship between the people here, and I can’t bear being the one who struck all of them down.
With that, I hope the admin is going to close this topic. A simplistic solution perhaps, and it won’t stop the war in the Middle East, nor even someone reposting this topic, but at least it will bring around a measure of peace. And on that note, let’s go back to being sci-fi fans, alright?
[ 13-04-2002: Message edited by: super_joe_yamaman ]
quote:
Originally posted by super_joe_yamaman:
[img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img] All right, that’s IT! I originally created this post to ask for a little tolerance for us Muslims. Instead, it’s turned into another bloody Middle East. So I’m going to ask the administrators for a favour. It’s time for this topic to be closed. Permanently.
[b]Wadda load of crap[/b]. If you asked for some tolerance to Muslims you did it badly. You may get away with such tactics on other boards, but luckily SadBOARD has posters with a little (or a lot) more intelligence.
quote:
Originally posted by super_joe_yamaman:
However, I must take the blame for what has happened here. Placing such a post was bound to have attracted attention, and I regret not closing the topic as soon as I posted it, so [i]this[/i] Muslim at least, is going to make peace with his enemies. I do not want to be the Osama of the SadGeezer board and destroy all that the people here have worked so hard to achieve as well as the goodwill of non-Muslims towards us. There has been a lot of friendship between the people here, and I can’t bear being the one who struck all of them down.
As a poster you are not able to close the topic [i](but then you knew that didn’t you)[/i].
And good for you mate! I’m glad you feel so strongly concerning the friendship of the posters on SadBOARD. It’s such a shame that you’re such a [b]lame brain[/b]. Good grief dude, do you really expect such comments to be considered seriously!?
After reading all the [i]intelligent[/i] comments from other contributors, I’m surprised that you have the audacity to consider yourself the Osama of SadBOARD.
Super_Joe, you are a narrow minded and insignificant troll who’s only intention with your original post was to create bad feeling amongst the SadBOARD community.
If it wasn’t for that fact that you have completely misinterpreted the excellent and intelligent discussions that have taken place in this thread, I would have no problem banning you from the board. However, I am so flabbergasted by your comments that I can’t, in all honesty, feel anything other than [b]mirth[/b]! Your complete ineptitude is staggering – you have the debating ability of an illiterate teen. [b]I feel sorry for you dude![/b]
quote:
Originally posted by super_joe_yamaman:
With that, I hope the admin is going to close this topic. A simplistic solution perhaps, and it won’t stop the war in the Middle East, nor even someone reposting this topic, but at least it will bring around a measure of peace. And on that note, let’s go back to being sci-fi fans, alright?
Close the topic!? [b]Yeah right![/b] And it’s very true, it won’t stop the war in the Middle East [b](how very perceptive of you)[/b].
Do you think a small community of sci fi SadGeezers discussing terrorism will make a difference? [b]Dude, only a small community of Muslim terrorists discussing terrorism will make a difference![/b]
You want to go back to talking about sci fi? Naa, you know nothing about sci fi!
[i]{Mary Beth: Please edit whatever part of this post you like. Super_Joe has made enough of a fool of himself without me making it worse.[/i]
[ 13-04-2002: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]
Gotta agree with Saddy here, the posts were peaceful and there was no hint of racism in any of them, I think your beginning to see things super joe.
Nobody was having a go, it was an intelligent debate and there was no malice, so I really don’t know why you get off thinking otherwise.
This was not a personal attack on Muslims or their faith, Saddy and the mods are certainly gonna close the door fairly sharpish if the situation had de-generated to that.
But Super Joe, if the creator of the board has to tell you in no uncertain terms what he thinks of you, maybe you should think of moving on.
And if you as a typical muslim react in this manner when other’s express their feelings on an ever worsening situation, then every fear we have about Islam is completely justified.
Squishy [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]quote[quote]{Mary Beth: Please edit whatever part of this post you like. [/quote]
Sad i did get a chance to read your post right before you edited it. and you did edit the comments that i would have. thank you! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
i have to agree with Sad and Squishy. the previous thread (despite a rough start) was a very intelligent and polite discussion. i don’t understand why Super_Joe would make a post like this one. i thought long and hard about what to do when the first thread reached 40 posts and would have to be locked. i started this second thread simply because the first one was very interesting and did not turn nasty. i am very interested in how our members view what is happening in our world. i can watch every bit of news on the TV, listen to the radio, read the newspapers and magazine, but i feel as though i would rather know what the people are actually thinking. instead of seeing a news report which has been edited and is basically one persons opinion.
i hope this helps explain why i went ahead and started this second thread on this topic.i think this calls for (*giggle*) [i]space[/i]-shuttle diplomacy…
[img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img][Flamegrape covers mouth to suppress fit of giggling… then looks around the Pub, realizing that no one got the joke]
Get it? Space, as in sci-fi? Middle-east? Henry Kissinger’s shuttle diplomacy?
ah, never mind!
[img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]LOL, Don’t worry, Flamegrape, I got it. And for the record, I had just gotten through saying how glad I was that everyone got along and posted responsibly here, lol. Joe, just because we didn’t vehemently agree with you and start badmouthing the industries that are doing security checks, doesn’t mean that we don’t get that your upset. But the way to handle something like this is to take it in stride, security is a worldwide concern right now, deal with it. Also,what’s going on now is not a wich hunt, it’s not persecution, it’s just that since NO muslim seems willing to help weed out other, bad muslims,we have to do that ourselves, which involes sifting through the good to get the bad (kind of like seperating the wheat from the chaff). Dude, if you don’t want another persons opininon stated in a polite, NON-confrontational manner, next time make a topic about Lexx, n’kay?
quote:
On top of the guilt of the holocaust, there was this Cold War fear that Egypt was going commie. When Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal, seized the Sinai Penninsula, and blocked Israeli access to the Gulf of Aqaba, the West was terrified. (Can you think of anything worse than fundamentalist Islamic communists?) Eventually the conflict with Israel and Egypt was resolved. But not before massive Western support was given to the Israelis.
Flamegrape, it is to your considerable credit that you appear to understand Muddle East politics better than most middle easterns. Unfortunately many of us – Arab and Jew alike – tend to understand everthing through the here and now, rendering history selectively ir/relevant.
I’d just like to supplement your comments with some further observations.One of things that tends to get understated by Western commentary is the eschatological element of Middle East politics (the religious goal/purpose of each’s historical relation to the land). This element directly involves all three religions emenating from the holy land, and in some ways runs deep in allegedly secular cultures as well. By secular, I just mean those Western nations that have purported to seperate religion from politics (as opposed to being irreligious). Bush’s crusade remark inadvertently tapped into this historical un/well, indicating that religious practice or identity can operate at a historically unconscious level. It is for this reason that I view the situation as intractable, irrespective of what is said or done.
The thing that needs to be stressed is that Islam may be monotheitic, but it is hardly a monolith. It is internally divided and these divisions occur across nation states. The terrorist issue is an indicator of these many divisions, not only bringing many different muslims together but helping to tear apart Islam from within.
quote:
One thing that has dramatically improved is the Arab view of Israel. At first, they vowed the destruction of Israel. Now they are actually recognizing their right to exist. But the Palestinian issue remains.
I am yet to meet an Arab who recognises Isreal’s right to exist. Public avowals resemble a smoke screen, and where there’s smoke there remains fire. The public support is merely tied into their desire for the West to support more regional or internal issues (investment, development, international recognition, etc). The Isreali presence in the Middle East remains an affront to the Arab identity on many levels. It is a reminder of how ineffectual pan Arabism really is – of the muslim worlds own inability to bring about God’s perceived will on Earth . The palestinian issue acts as a lighning rod, and the Christian West is seen to be complicit in the local displacement/delay of an Islamic eschatology. So whilst some Arab nations may recognise Isreal’s right to exist, they still think that their existence is wrong. One way to illustrate this is by wondering who actually finances the Palestinian cause? (The American’s have drawn up a list that includes wealthy supporters from Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Iran, Sadui Arabia, Lebanon, etc) An incredibly poor people whose lives are dependent upon their marginal status on Isreal’s economy somehow manage to secure/import arms regardless. Another way to illustate it is to note how many muslims travel from diferent Islamic countries that won’t publicly endorse terrorism, but always manage to find a host nation to privately support training and allow funds from various sources into their own country.
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The West has always been stuck between a rock and a hard place.
So is the middle east, hence the muddle alluded to above.
quote:
I’m forced to agree with the Western view that the terrorism must end. If I only understood what the Muslims expect to happen as a result of the terrorism. Yes, it draws attention to the issues. But there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing.
We need to be particularly careful here. The term terrorism is a political term, and is relative to the question of one’s politics/situation. It not only means the use of terror for political ends, it also means feeling terrorised by another’s ends or politics. It may not only apply to groups of people who fly planes into buildings, it could also apply to a nation’s policy of indifference or another’s active presence on a land. Implict within the use of these terms are obviously the notions of guilty or innocent parties, but these are in in return, relative to the question of cultural heritage or belonging. Cultural critics within the West like Chomsky or Hitchen’s (amongst many) view the West’s food embargo on Iraq as a form of terrorism , and Isreal’s policy to level the homes of the suspected terrorists is experienced by Palestinians as terrible in its own right, and only confirms their own sense of helplessness.
The point I’m trying to draw attention to is that the use of term ‘terrorism’ is relative to the question of where each person/nation stands in relation to their own politics or political involvement, and is viewed as in/defensible accordingly. Consequently, the phrase ‘war on terror’ could be construed as an oxymoron – it involves the use of terror on those that use terror.
Note that I’m [b]NOT[/b] saying they are the same thing, merely that questionable actions [b]ARE[/b] invariably relativised to the ‘fundamental’ question of one’s own political context and involvement. Personally speaking, if someone is not prepared to view the reality of another person because of the perceived relevance or primacy of their own concerns, then they are on their way to being a terrorist in one form or another.
quote:
But I also think that Israel needs to back off. Sharon’s ultra-rightwing government is becoming dangerous. Their extreme actions work against them because it’s generating Western sympathy for their hated foes, the Palestinians.
Neither side can back off or back down. It is part of the cultural DNA to have everyone’s backs up against the wailing wall. Suppose a compromise or truce was managed – this would only defer the problem of each’s bequathed relation to the land. If we maintain your historical view, all that can result is a constant process of give and take that threatens to undermine each and every one of them down the road. And if we observe that history is viewed as a form of eschatology within the Middle East (and possibly still outside it), part of the problem is that the solution requires each to invalidate the other in God’s (perceived) eyes. Isreal is a battle ground because it is viewed as a testing ground – as a test or measure of one’s true faith as [i]the true[/i] faith. The fact that there are three faith’s competing for legitimation via a covenant with God in one way or another indicates that the situation will remain as terrible as it is terryfying.
[ 13-04-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]
quote:
Originally posted by bonnee:
Neither side can back off or back down. It is part of the cultural DNA to have everyone’s backs up against the wailing wall.
[ 13-04-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]
I agree with this part of your missive bonnee; for some reason, exceedingly long memories and a willingness to spend eternity brooding over past injustices, as well as a fundamental unwillingness to compromise appears to be pandemic in the middle east…however i object to the feel good semantics lecture on terrorism;let’s go for very simple words and concepts here. Terrorism is murder/maiming of nonmilitary personnel to make a political or religious point…so while one could argue that the pentagon, as a military target, is a justifiable target by another army, or an army of terrorists even, there is absolutely no way to justify the destruction of the wtc and the people within…not to mention the hapless passengers of all the airliners who got dragged along for the ride…At least in a war, you have professional soldiers fighting other professional soldiers…and hopefully dragging in as few noncombatants as possible…so please do not imply that the term terrorism is relative; even the terrorists know that it is murder of innocents, that’s why they do it…be they muslim, ira or whatever…
*sigh* super_joe, if you ARE so interested in peace, then why did you post such a provocative topic? I mean, you’re practically bloody well handing out invitations for a round of brickbats from both sides, and do you know why I said ‘from both sides’? Because I am a Muslim too, and I have to agree with Sadgeezer on at least one point: YOU ARE MAKING US LOOK BAD!
I mean, “we can only do so much” ?! What kind of lily-livered BS is that?! Are you implying we Muslims are such pitiful pieces of humanity we depend on others to solve our problems for us? Is that it? How about I rephrase it a bit, in other words: “WE CAN DO SO MUCH” How about that, huh? And your asking the administrators to close this forum, how cowardly can one be? Get some guts man!
Look, super_joe, try seeing it from this perspective. If your country was attacked by terrorists (who weren’t fighting in accordance with Islamic rules I might add) and many innocent people were killed, wouldn’t you be a little paranoid? To be honest, if our positions were reversed, I’d reimpose the f**king Inquisition!
The fact remains however that both sides are to blame, like in any war, whether we like it or not. You cannot point to Muslims and say, “They are innocent, it’s the fault of the Jewish Conspiracy and their Western Zionist accomplices” nor can you say, ” Innocent Israelis are being killed and the West aren’t doing anything about the Muslim warmongers who are responsible”. It is time we stop pointing fingers and start doing something. Yes, super_joe, the West has to do something, but we Muslims can do so much more. Fact: Islam is the second biggest religion in the world as well as being the fastest growing religion. This means that Islam can either destroy the world or make it a far better place. But we Muslims have to stop first. I am not saying the Palestinians have to stop their land from being taken by that bas*ard Ariel Sharon’s Israeli military (note I said Israeli, not Jewish) nor am I saying the Israelis deserve to be blown up on their way to [i]shul[/i] by a car bomb. What I [b]AM[/b] saying is that we Muslims have to show our faith by doing what Allah placed us on Earth to do in the first place, namely act as its caretakers, to protect it and its inhabitants, or have you forgotten that?
Personally, I pity you, which is what you probably really wanted in the first place. You’ve dug a hole for yourself that you can’t get out of and now that you’ve found out you’ve bitten off more than you could chew, you’re running away, and to hell with taking responsibility for your actions. And in case you’re wondering how I know you so well, let me just say that I’m also a Malaysian of Chinese Muslim descent, and that I have a few suspicions about who you are. So laying low for awhile, both from certain family members and the Sadboard is advised, the reason being in my current mood, I have no tolerance for you, because unlike you, I’m [b]proud[/b] to be Muslim.
[i]Son of Bester i deleted 2 phrases that were not acceptable in accordance with our “No Flaming/No Personal Attacks” rule.[/i]
[ 16-04-2002: Message edited by: mary beth ]
YEAH! What [b]he[/b] said!!
Son of Bester put it much better than me.
Nice one Son! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
[b]so please do not imply that the term terrorism is relative; even the terrorists know that it is murder of innocents, that’s why they do it…be they muslim, ira or whatever…[/b]
*sigh* I wasn’t going to touch this one, but I have to weigh in here and agree with FX about what terrorism really means. Let’s not split hairs and try to justify what was a simple, brutal act of murder. I’ve heard all the arguments about why the Sept. 11 terrorists felt justified in doing what they did, why the Palestinian suicide bombers feel justified doing what they’re doing, why the Israelis feel justified pushing people out of the homes they’ve lived for generations, etc. etc. etc. In my opinion, there is no justification for murder. Not as long as there is still opportunity to talk (and yell), both in the court of public opinion and in a world court of laws and civilized behavior.
quote:
Originally posted by FX:
…At least in a war, you have professional soldiers fighting other professional soldiers…and hopefully dragging in as few noncombatants as possible…
I just wanted to remind you of our lessons learned in Vietnam. The Viet Cong fought the war in very unconventional ways. They frequently resorted to terrorism, bombing places, killing Vietnamese civilians… not just fighting soldiers on the battlefield.
But it’s worth noting that our modern militaries learned the Vietnam lesson well. Our commandos are trained to prosecute warfare in unconventional ways. In ways that are sometimes secret and denied in public.
It’s also worth noting that unconventional warfare helped win the American Revolution. That is to say, “unconventional” for the time period.
I’m going out on a limb, but… maybe terrorism is that area of injustice between violent crime and war?
Rest assured that the perpetrators of terrorism are being pursued. More than likely, they will be dealt with by whatever means possible.
As I recall, Black September (the people responsible for the Munich Olympics incident) was dealt with in a vigilanti manner by the Isralis. (I’ll have to check my history on that one…)
So vigilanti justics is not ideal. And certainly a highly organized military campaign isn’t the best solution either. It’s a new bloody path we follow, me thinks.
An Interesting Article
Dissecting the Meaning of Terrorism. Freedom Fighter or Terrorist? [url=http://www.nonviolence.org/commentary/121.php]http://www.nonviolence.org/commentary/121.php[/url]
[ 21-04-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]
Okay, no offense Bonnee, but what a load of crap. That’s so easy to do, refer to everyone, from soldiers that kill or be killed, to regular citizens that pay them, terrorists. Let’s just all be terrorists, and all go on trial, and let the little children rule the world. Better yet, let’s all be mahatma fighters, and stand there and take bullets for love and peace, thereby eradicating entire nations of people that adopt this non violent policy, leaving only the terrorists that killed all of us. That way, after there are no more “interfering West scum” or “non muslim infadels” they will, of course, turn on themselves and the animals can take over again [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] .
For real, Bonnee, I know you meant well, but let’s look at terrorism the way it needs to be looked at, if we start going around blaming everyone for this, and start calling everyone terrorists, it somehow dilutes and diffuses the imact and horror of what is going on with the REAL terrorists who kill CIVILIANS.
Also, by semi-accepting terror attacks on civilians by calling them “freedom fighters ” is wrong and crap. True freedom fighters attack the government, and military, even killing themselves in the process. Anyone who kills the defensless unimpowered citizens of a nation just bcause they come from that nation are NOT freedom fighters, they are killers. Wartime and military in general expect to die eventualyy, and put themselves into that situation thusly knowing, The verage citizen, a woman pushing a stroller, a man going to work, a child going to school, shouldn’t expect to die at any moment. Why don’t you try showing your post to one of those kids that lost a mom or dad or both in the WTC? Try explaining to THEM how their parents were terrorists because they paid their taxes. You can’t be PC about this, it isn’t “hug the World”, it’s people killing innocents.An interesting Article
Politics of Terrorism [url=http://www.iwanami.co.jp/jpworld/text/civilization01.html]http://www.iwanami.co.jp/jpworld/text/civilization01.html[/url]
[ 21-04-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]
Brain….freezing…..too much pseudo educated rambling non helpful media crap…..brain…..brain……ARRRRRRUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!
[i]has small explosion between the legs[/i]
WHEW! That’s better! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img][ 20-04-2002: Message edited by: Nirvanah Rimmer ]
Uh, Bonee, you are a very intelligent person and I agree with you on a lot of points. You are very knowledgeable on this subject and many other subjects. But…COULD YOU PLEASE SUMMARISE YOUR POINT TO A PARAGRAPH OR TWO!! [img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img]
God, and I’ve been accused of being long winded!! Dude you wrote like twenty pages!! I couldn’t finish it! This is a virtual pub not a lecture room!!!I’m sorry man. I’ve enjoyed listening to a lot of what you’ve said and you seem very passionate about this but saying something that’s short and sweet can be just as powerful as a term paper [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] .
I would add my own opinion but after reading a quarter of that, I’m too tired now.
Sorry Nosferatu – these are not my articles, but things I copied and pasted into the same ‘page’ for the sake (believe it or not) of easy access and brevity. I’m not sure I’d want to summarise other people’s points, if only because I might end up violating what was intended. if there is one thing I’ve learnt, its that people don’t so much take something away from an article or text (or pictures), but bring something to it (their own assumptions and concerns, etc.).
Please don’t feel the need to read what I’ve posted, let alone respond. My understanding of postings is that many of us ‘share’ just ‘for the record’ – and all I wanted to do was record the ‘fact’ that the notions of violence, innocence, guilt, etc are contested and problematic notions within history/society.
Personally speaking, I don’t have a view on these issues other than, historically speaking, civilisation has blood on its hands and on its historical tracks, however we want to wash/dirty our hands of this question.
Then why not post links to the sites from where you’ve obtained the info? While no one is forced to *read* what you copy-and-paste, people *are* forced to scroll past numerous screens of text, and if they don’t want to read it, it becomes an annoyance. By saying something like “An interesting article on thie topic can be found here,” and then linking to said article, you save both space and time, if brevity is indeed what you’re striving for.
Also, since the topics on each board are limited to 40-odd posts due to thread length causing board instability, I don’t think it helps matters when one of those posts is the size equivalent of, say, 20 “normal” posts. In fact, I’m sure that it *hurts* matters, because any moderator could possibly see that the postings in this thread are well below the 40-mark and not take into account the exceptional length of the parroted text.–Aleck
Your kick up my backside is my command [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
[ 21-04-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]
[img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] thank you for editing your post Bonnee. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
[img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] and thank you Aleck for asking for the link. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
[ 21-04-2002: Message edited by: mary beth ]
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