Insect Wars: Dark Zone or Light Universe?
Yeee-haaaaww! More good discussion! For simplicity, I’m going to separate the Valdron quotes and the DalekTek quotes into two groups, even though that places the posts out of order in some spots.
Valdron wrote:
quote[quote] The fact remains that it couldn’t have been other memories seized from the fall of Brunnis 2. That HDS was destroyed when Kai took his memories back. [/quote]
I tend to agree. Although one would think the memories would pass on to each successive DP in a compound interest effect, the way the DP that killed Kai talks in IWHS, it sounds like the DPs only keep memories specific to what they did:
“Predecessors, look into me. I was the one who took his life. I have his memories.”
Perhaps only the Insect Essence gets the “compound interest.”
quote[quote] I too have noted the contradictory statement of Kai about the Brunnen G in Supernova. I assume that Kai’s reference has to be to the archaic brunnen g of the dark zone, before the move to the light universe, and before the shield. [/quote]
Well, Zev is looking for a way to bring the dead back to life. Kai is correct in saying the Brunnen-G never did unlock that particular secret. I think his answer is in that context. But it is funny how close the wording is between Kai’s statement and the Master’s statement.
quote:
As for whether there was traffic beyond the shield after it went up. Did the Brunnen G ever leave after the shield, but before Kai.
I would have to say that there is no evidence whatsoever to support that contention. At best, we can only support such a notion by seeking ambiguity in statements which would seem to imply no traffic, and no communication.
There are two pieces of evidence already stated:
1. Stanley touches the memory of someone who died on Brunnis 5000 years earlier. The odds still favor that this person was Brunnen-G.
2. His Shadow has killed several Brunnen-G who lived on Brunnis. The only way that seems possible is if Brunnen-G travelled beyond the shield during the time of the Divine Order (perhaps going to Brunnis to die?) and were intercepted by His Shadow.
There may be no definitive answer on this subject, but I think there is more evidence to suggest they traveled some, than there is evidence to suggest they never left the confines of the shield.
quote[quote] Isolationism was not a sudden thing. According to the MOC, by the time the Brunnen G had made it into the light universe, the insect wars were forgotten, man had fallen to warring with himself, and nobody cared about the Brunnen G. I think that the decision to build the barrier was a product of an isolationism that had been building for a while. [/quote]
I’ll give you that. According to the Master, things happened in this order:
1. New home in the Light Universe.
2. Man fighting against man.
3. Brunnen-G turned inward.
4. They put up a great defensive shield.
5. Halted their aging process.However, just because they isolated themselves from other cultures, that doesn’t mean they never went beyond their shield for their own selfish purposes.
For example, perhaps the defensive shield needs a certain mineral to fuel it. Perhaps, at some point, this mineral was becoming scarce on Brunnis 2, but might be mined from another planet. Maybe… oh… Aurilium 4? [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
quote:
My best guess is that HDS and the Divine Order emerged while the Brunnen G were still in the Dark Zone, was active when they crossed over into the Light Universe, and
expanded slowly or quickly over the next 10 millenia.
I don’t think so. In Mantrid, the last surviving Insect tells us how he hid himself inside a small planetoid, and then waited. There’s no telling how long he had to wait.
When the Brunnen-G make their home in the Light Universe, there is no mention of the Divine Order, only man fighting against man. And in fact, the Divine Order is only seen to be “on the rise” when the New Born look out through the weak points in their shield. If the Divine Order was only “on the rise” around the time of Kai’s death, and the Brunnen-G put up a shield and conquered their mortality 10,000 years before that, it seems clear the Divine Order had not begun that far back.
quote[quote] How long does it take, anyway, to conquer 20,000 worlds? [/quote]
Obviously HDS did not have to conquer all 20,000. As Thodin tells us in IWHS, the Divine Order is a false religion. It is more of a religious cult, than a typical empire, centered around its mysterious leader with god-like powers. HDS probably expanded his influence through a combination of religious conversion, and outright conquering. The Divine Order would expand at an exponential rate (compound interest again). They are “on the rise” at the time of Kai’s death, and at the height of their power during Stan’s time.
quote[quote] Of course, there is the comment by 790 in Rated: Lexx that the Divine Order had begun its expansion and that Brunnis 2 was the first big target. [/quote]
Ooh, which dvd is that segment on? That is an interesting comment. Note, however, that the New Born look through the weak points and see the Divine Order “conquering and destroying planet-after-planet.” I’d be interested in hearing the exact 790 quote, as the “planet-after-planet” seems to be incompatible with Brunnis 2 being the first big target (unless it’s a “big target” in terms of importance and significance for HDS).
quote:
This would imply that the Divine Order is much younger than Brunnis 2,
and this creates a quandary in assessing the info from Supernova.
It sounds like Mantrid, Brigadoom, and Rated Lexx all imply that the Divine Order *is* much younger than Brunnis 2. This means that what we heard in Super Nova again indicates that Brunnen-G did occasionally travel beyond the shield.
DalekTek wrote:
quote[quote] I always thought the idea of His Divine Shadow absorbing the memories of many Brunnen-G was a little odd, since he only killed one personally, but it’s the only logical explanation for how Kai received their memories. It is tatted time and again that he possesses the memories of many Brunnen-G killed in the destruction of Brunnis-2, and he could only have gotten them from the Divine Predecessor. [/quote]
This actually tickles my memory. I do seem to recall something about Kai saying he had the memories of everyone killed on Brunnis 2, but I can’t remember where. Heck, it might have simply been something said on one of these boards. Can anybody source this? If he did say that, it shakes things up a bit.
quote[quote] But there’s no plausible explanation for how a Brunnen-G could have died on Brunnis-1 5,000 standard years before the Fall of His Shadow. [/quote]
Sure there is. He traveled beyond the shield and went to Brunnis. And remember, the location of Brunnis is not common knowledge. Even 790 doesn’t know where it is. Kai only knows because of what he learned in school on Brunnis 2. And note that when the Time Prophet mentions the memory catacombs on Brunnis, the guy doesn’t react with any surprise or curiosity. If he weren’t Brunnen-G, you’d think he’d say, “what the heck is that?”
But I will devil’s advocate: The Ostral-B know about the Brunnen-G (“you look Brunnen-G”), the prophecy (“could this be the fulfillment of the prophecy?”), and the Fractal Core (Stanley’s other code revealing a location beyond the reach of His Shadow). All this could indicate they visited Brunnis.
And on a side-note of devil’s advocacy, I now tend to think the shield cannot be easily turned off: The majority of Brunnen-G on Brunnis 2 invited HDS to come and kill them, but Brunnis 2’s defensive shield was destroyed by the Divine Order. If the shield could easily be turned off, then the Brunnen-G elders would have done so… to allow HDS to kill them with a minimum of fuss. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
It is more likely their shield worked the same way Reform Planet shields worked: the shield remains up, but a code allows friendly vessels to pass through the shield without being destroyed.