Daniel and Marty Transcript

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  • #39495
    Headgehog
    Participant

    This is the transcript from the final chapter of Chapterhouse: Dune. Feel free to disseminate and discuss it here!

    Marty: “You deliberatly let them get away, Daniel”
    Daniel: “Now, Marty it was not deliberate. He surprised me, I knew he saw us but I didn’t suspect he saw the net.”
    Marty: “And I had such a nice planet picked out for them, one of the best. A real test of their abilities”
    Daniel: “No use moaning about it, they’re where we can’t touch them now. He was spread so thin, I expected to catch him easily.”
    Marty: “They had a Tleilaxu Master, too, I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master”
    Daniel: “don’t see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don;t like treating MAsters that way and you know it! If it weren’t for them…”
    Marty: “They’re nto gods, Daniel”
    Daniel: “Neither are we.”
    Marty: I still think you let them escape. You’re so anxious to prune your roses!”
    Daniel: “What woudl you have said to the Master, anyway?”
    Marty: I was going to joke when we asked who we were. They always ask that. I was going to say: “What did you expect, God Himself with a flowing beard?'”
    Daniel: “That would’ve been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them.
    Marty: ” I don’t see why. It’s a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and…”
    Daniel: “It’s personas we take, MArty.”
    Marty: Oh, I’d have apologized to him after putting him in his place. You can do just so much managing of others, isn;t that rigth, Daniel?”
    Daniel: “When you get that look on your face, MArty, I go prune my roses.
    Marty: “Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel! That’s what I’d have told him. ANd those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I’d have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?”
    Daniel: “Not to mention Menatats, there were two of them on that ship-both gholas. You want to play with them?”
    Marty: “The MAsters always try to control them too”
    Daniel: ” That MAster is oging yo have trouble if he tries to mess wiht that big one.”
    Marty: “Mentats, too! I’d have told them. Dime a dozen, they are”
    Daniel: ” Dimes? I don’t think they’d have understood that, MArty. The Reverand Mothers, yes, but not that big Mentat. He didn’t thin out that far back.”
    MArty: “You know what you let get away, Daniel? That Master had a nullentropy tube in his chest. Full of ghola cells, too!”
    Daniel: “I saw it.”
    Marty: “That’s why you let them get away!”
    Daniel: Didn’t let them. Gholas. He’s welcome to them.”

    #68475
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Oooh, good stuff. Now get ready for 800 pages of rambling.

    I actually think this scene is fairly simple. These are just evolved Face Dancers like the Priest in “Heretics of Dune” except these two evolved during the Scattering thousands of years ago, and have now collected so many “souls” they are figurativly “God”.

    However lets assume there’s more to it, and I think there is.
    ——————————————————————————-
    Scenario 1

    Erasmus is Daniel, Omnius is Marty. Erasmus went to Bandalong and found the Flesh Farms and bio engineering facilities perfect for creating humans from the ground up. Erasmus has a fleshmetal face which he likes to use to change expressions and guises. Hence “Face Dancers”. Also in the Machine Crusade, Serena notices things that clearly indicate the BT are already a Drone race, ruled by Masters. They have no culture, and their homes are like anthills. The objects in her room seemed to have been all fabricated just for her to give the illusion of culture. So the BT are already set it seems, ripe for takeover.

    In the Machine Crusade Erasmus claims in the Header to a chapter he would love to create humans from the ground up, if only there was a way! Well there is, and it’s the Tluxla. It would explain why Marty said “….if it wasent for them….” But it could just as easily mean “they created us initially like any other face dancer”.

    Also Marty loves to prune her roses. I think this is another connection to Erasmus and Omnius who love to garden for some reason, unlike any other machines. But I also think the roses are symbolic of all the “souls” they have captured. And they are “pruning” out gholas and other “souls” that arent unique.

    But regardless if it is Erasmus, back to my original point; in Heretics of Dune, a brand new kind of Face Dancer is used to absorb a Priest of Arrakis. Eventually the Face Dancer became so absorbed he lost himself and truly became the Priest, even ignoring his deepest programming (When Tylwyth Waff whistles at him he ignores it and gets angry) When you get right down to it, nothing seperates the Priest from the Face Dancer, except perhaps a “soul”? Hence why Marty cares nothing for Gholas.

    I think this happened 10,000+ years ago during the Scattering when Face Dancers were left to evolve on their own. Only now the BT are finally catching up with their own technology and witnessing (through the Priest) what the Scattering did to their race. There is also a Rogue Bene Tlielax race out there, not covered very well but mentioned by both Waff and Scytale in Heretics and Chapterhouse. For all we know Herbert just hasent introduced the new race yet. Also in Heretics in the very beginning, Waff notices something strange about the Face Dancers guarding him, they are taking the form of Domel (The actual BT race, they are all drones to the Masters) which is forbidden, but Waff is too excited to care.

    Marty and Daniel are just two evolved Face Dancers who have absorbed so many souls over the years they can now do it mentally, hence the “Net”.

    But the real question is this: Why can Duncan see them? Earlier in the book it’s explained that Duncan has Sionas genes in this current incarnation. And Leto bred Siona specifically to save humankind from *something* in the future. Sionas father was “close” but it wasent until Siona that Leto realized he could finally die now that humanity was on the Golden Path.

    Now the term “Thin” which these two use. Clearly it indicates time itself. The more time one has existed, the thinner they are. What is indicated in this conversation is that these two are even much older than the Bene Gesserit.

    “You can only do so much managing of others, isn’t that right, Daniel?”

    This really stinks of machine logic and why I think it’s possibly Erasmus and Omnius. Erasmus still trying to teach Omnius what it is to be human.

    —————————————————————————–

    Now I have a third theory as well. What about Scytale?

    Scytale was a Face Dancer, the first ever introduced thus far in the Dune Saga. However later he is a Master. How is this possible?

    The easiest solution is that because Scytale discovered Immortality he was granted Master status. But this is just too hard to believe after learning that the BT race looks down upon Face Dancers as inhuman tools. Even the Domel while considered human are looked down upon. Beyond the Domel every other human is “Powindah” or untouchable.

    What if these “Gods” overlooked that perhaps Scytale was the Master of Face Dancers from the very beginning? Maybe he was always a Master. The Masters all have the ability to stop a rogue Face Dancer dead in his tracks by whistling. Marty and Daniel indicate this no longer works on them. But Scytale was once a Face Dancer as well, why didn’t Marty and Daniel mention this? I think it’s important.

    If Scytale was a Face Dancer tens of thousands of years ago, then its possible he has some yet unseen insight into all of this. I can think of only one other reason he survived for book7-8, the null-entropy tube which contains cells all the way back to Xavier and Serena Butler.

    Soooo we may end up seeing a lot of characters from The Butlerian Jihad series, perhaps even an entire repeat of history. In support of this why did the movie condense the entire Golden Path and Letos philosophy down into one sentence repeated over and over:

    We go Foward, we come Back.

    The books support this. Leto I, Pauls father explains that humanity actually lost the Jihad, because they sacrificed their humanity to win. Perhaps this time it will be different?

    #68478
    Anonymous
    Guest

    PS. Teg is the reason I think it might be likely they are only just evolved Face Dancers.

    Teg seems to be the connection to the Machines.

    It was Teg that destroyed Arrakis, and Teg who created the first Cymeks/Cyborgs since the Jihad. And this line stinks of a connection between Teg and the Machines:
    ——————————————————–
    (356pg in softcover, Chapterhouse Dune)

    The pilot relayed her words. Back came the order: “Reduce velocity and lock onto those coordinates for landing. We are taking over your ship control at this point.”
    The pilot touched a yellow field on his board. “Just the way the Bashar said they would.” A gloating sound in his voice. He lifted the hood of his head and turned.

    Cyborg!

    The face was a metal mask with two glittering silver balls for eyes.

    We enter dangerous ground.
    ————————————————————–

    It also hints that Teg did this to save people from being captured by the “Net”. But none the less, everything Teg seems to have done insured the return of the Machines. But that’s another conversation all together =)

    #68610
    Headgehog
    Participant

    But none the less, everything Teg seems to have done insured the return of the Machines. But that’s another conversation all together =)

    It was Leto II who began to reintegrate technology into humanity. At the begining of his reign, he was anti-machine like everyone else, but over his 3500 year tenure, he slowly adjusted humanities opinion toward machines and technology. At the end of God emperor, he tells Siona and Duncan to trust Ix and their machines. I belive that Leto knew that humanities future depended on it using its best natural ability, the ability to creates tools and technology to accomplish tasks.

    #68613
    Headgehog
    Participant

    The fact that the facedancers could see the no-ship shows that they are evolutionarily advanced or have some cool technology (thainking machine?) Assumignthe former, this assumes that these two have some form of prescient abilties.

    Marty: “And I had such a nice planet picked out for them, one of the best. A real test of their abilities”

    I think this net, was an actual ship capturing device, one that would have purposefully put the no ship crew on a planet. Its likely that Marty and Daniel wanted to toy with them first. Give them some more expeinces, then absorb them for their own use. Maybe the face dancers are themselves fighting a larger force, one that is trying to exterminate humanity as a whole. It doubtful since Daniel seems more concerned with his simple life pleasures like grdening.

    Marty: “Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel! That’s what I’d have told him. ANd those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I’d have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?”

    So I guess we know what happened to the Bene Gesseit who went out (recently) into the scattering. MAybe evensome of the earlier BG scatters. If I were t try to absorb a lot of memories quick, I’d go for the sisterhood with their other memory.

    MArty: “You know what you let get away, Daniel? That Master had a nullentropy tube in his chest. Full of ghola cells, too!”
    Daniel: “I saw it.”
    Marty: “That’s why you let them get away!”
    Daniel: Didn’t let them. Gholas. He’s welcome to them.”

    So they don’t like gholas. They think its not worth the effort to collect them. Why? Because they have no memories! No experiences to gather. What these two don’t realize though it what ghola cells they are! (This shows a limit to their prescience. The memories of Muad’Dib are completely worth the effort. The other cells of other 7 masters of the Tleilaxu, Stilgar, Thufir, and Duncan are also quite valueable. Of interest may be Chani, and the BT techs that are also stored in the nullentropy tube.

    #68626
    Anonymous
    Guest

    But none the less, everything Teg seems to have done insured the return of the Machines. But that’s another conversation all together =)

    It was Leto II who began to reintegrate technology into humanity. At the begining of his reign, he was anti-machine like everyone else, but over his 3500 year tenure, he slowly adjusted humanities opinion toward machines and technology. At the end of God emperor, he tells Siona and Duncan to trust Ix and their machines. I belive that Leto knew that humanities future depended on it using its best natural ability, the ability to creates tools and technology to accomplish tasks.[/quote]

    I definitely would not argue with that. Leto II greatest fear and problem was the Spice itself so he weened humanity off of it. He said time and time again humanity had substituted one thing for another. And hinted their dependency was their most major weakness. But his reintegration of technology didn’t really break the Jihad rules, just skirted them. The re-emergence of cyborgs is breaking the moral imperitives humans had followed since the Jihad: Thou shalt not create machines in the image of mans mind, or what not. Leto II was very much like Leto, they both knew that humanity had gone entirely overboard on damning technology.

    I was also thinking originally about how Teg destroyed Arrakis, and having just read the Machine Crusade it seemed everything Teg did supported the end of Spice and the coming of the new machines.

    But you’re dead on right, and now it makes me thing Teg was just completing the Golden Path for Leto II.

    So they don’t like gholas. They think its not worth the effort to collect them. Why? Because they have no memories! No experiences to gather. What these two don’t realize though it what ghola cells they are! (This shows a limit to their prescience. The memories of Muad’Dib are completely worth the effort. The other cells of other 7 masters of the Tleilaxu, Stilgar, Thufir, and Duncan are also quite valueable. Of interest may be Chani, and the BT techs that are also stored in the nullentropy tube

    My thoughts are very similar on the subject. To Marty and Daniel, Gholas are copies of copies. They wouldn’t have any interest in that. However, I think Leto knew these 2 were coming, that’s part of Sionas gift. She was the first to be shielded from prescience, and that brings up that they don’t know a whole lot about recent history.

    I’m convinced however there’s more to the Masters. They’re much to self absorbed and paranoid to be the real leaders of a communal drone race that had such foresight. Letos utter aversion to them is curious. And his statements are confusing as hell, especially in the cave towards the end of “Heretics”. Waff really exposes himself as a moron, and he’s the Master of Masters! And like Marty or Daniel says the last one they caught just whistled at them.

    Scytale on the other hand seems to have devolved from Dune Messiah, or am I alone in noticing that? He appears much more simple in thought and far more reliant on faith and scripture. Of course hell it’s been tens of thousands of years at that point.

    I don’t think the Tleilaxu are going to factor in to book 7&8, but I think whatever is really at the center of their race will. I’ve also never figured out if the Masters used the “serial memories” or if that was only Duncan who had that.

    Quote:
    Marty: “Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel! That’s what I’d have told him. ANd those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I’d have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?”

    So I guess we know what happened to the Bene Gesseit who went out (recently) into the scattering. MAybe evensome of the earlier BG scatters. If I were t try to absorb a lot of memories quick, I’d go for the sisterhood with their other memory.

    Gawd, I’ve been thinking about this one for years, I can honestly say I don’t have the first clue what they are talking about in regards to the B.G. The Jihad trilogy has given us some real insight to how the BG were pre-Spice. My first inclination was that it was simply an insult to the BG. The BG are so arrogant and secure in the fact they have more memories than anyone else. Then here’s these 2 people that dwarf their knowledge, which would obviously make them feel alone and alienated. But it’s anyones guess. You’re right about the connection between the lost BG scouts and Marty and Daniel, never caught that correlation before.

    IX is definitely going to factor into book 7&8, if I had to guess that’s where Duncan and Murbella(?) will go to gather the storm so to speak. I figure Scytale will still be around at least as a 3rd source of “Ancient Knowledge” and possibly as the foil to Marty and Daniel. While Duncan and Murbella and progeny will deal with the returning Machines(the Ancient Enemy) or possibly even the Titans.

    Or even cooler maybe the story will begin 25k years later with Duncan and company(having gone into a distant unknown point in space) formed a new civilization based on the cells.. Now their new empire of worlds re-encounters the Synchronized worlds which are the same worlds from the first series again.

    Stop my guessing Mr. Herbert and release your dang books! 😈

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