D&D

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  • #35920
    SadGeezer
    Keymaster

    I realise that this is a sci-fi forum and not a fantasy forum, but I’m creating this topic anyway.
    Who else plays D&D here? And who plays AD&D?
    I have just had my first go at D&D (I played a rogue, and I got caught nicking a bonsai tree, but I did get to steal some amps, a CD player, and some coins), and I own Birthright; The Gorgon’s Allegiance, which is AD&D.

    #43667
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    The last role-playing game I’ve played is one called GURPS, which stands for “Generic Universal Role-Playing System”. The game rules are simple and allow for anachronism of any kind.

    My character was a stripper from Atlanta. Aside from pleasing men, her skills included kung-fu and telepathy. She gets caught up in a secret government plot involving a crashed UFO in Stone Mountain, Georgia. (As usual with the group of people I was playing with, the story was never concluded. This was many years ago.)

    I seldom encounter anyone with the time or patience to play any role-playing games anymore.

    #43668
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Never heard of GURPS before. Is it an American thing???
    Well, this Saturday was the first time I’ve played D&D, and I got one of Josh’s charactors, Max, a human rogue who’s neutral. Basically, at the start of the campaign, Lishie (the DM for the campaign) decided that Josh, Lucinda, Chris, Lan and herself would be turned into their charactors. So they ended up in their charactor’s bodies. Josh became Ramses (a shape-shifting centaur) Lucinda became Ember (a half-halfling, half-dragon who gets fiery hiccups, literally) Chris became his charactor, whose name I don’t know (but his charactor is a cleric weretiger, but the tiger side is currently only a kitten!) Lan became Serafina (a half-angel, or half-celestrial, whichever you prefer, who is also the daughter of the right hand of god) and Lishie became Whisper, who is Serafina’s twin sister.
    I joined in way after that and was imprisoned before they got me out.
    During that campaign, I was caught trying to steal a bonsai tree, I managed to steal some money from Ember when I was invisible, I was caught trying to steal some more money from Ember, I was caught trying to steal some stuff off of some Ewoks (and Whisper turned me upside down and shaked me so that I lost everything I’d pocketed, about 100 coins from Ember), I was caught just as I was about to steal some gems from some walls studded with them (Ramses came up behind me and lifted me up by the hair and said ‘Max, don’t touch anything. And don’t steal.’) When we got back to the ‘proper’ world I at least managed to steal some amps, microphones and a CD player.
    In addition, I almost drowned in strawberry ice-cream, almost had my little finger chopped off, almost had my hair ripped out, and I was almost tied to a chair by a sheriff who I managed to knock out and I was nearly brain-dead one time. Oh, and we had B5 bit where Morden pointed a PPC at everyone and accused us of working for the Vorlons!!
    Dungeons and Dragons is fun, but if you ever try it, don’t be a rogue!!!!!!!!!
    Oh yeah, I also got some special skills from Wild, which were telekinesis (I lifted a guy up six feet off the ground, transphasing (I fell through a diving board one time!) and invisibility.
    It was fun!!!!!!!!!!!

    #43669
    Anonymous
    Guest

    ok now as someone who played D & D 20 years ago i have just one word to say! Huh? when i played we had elves, trolls, warlocks and the like. i have never heard of a celestial being. or B5 having anything to do with it (obviously, cause, well, it was 20 years ago!)

    quote:


    Josh became Ramses (a shape-shifting centaur) Lucinda became Ember (a half-halfling, half-dragon who gets fiery hiccups, literally) Chris became his charactor, whose name I don’t know (but his charactor is a cleric weretiger, but the tiger side is currently only a kitten!) Lan became Serafina (a half-angel, or half-celestrial, whichever you prefer, who is also the daughter of the right hand of god) and Lishie became Whisper, who is Serafina’s twin sister.


    again i say, huh?
    if anyone else played the same D & D that i played 20 years ago please reply to this forum. i am going to try and find out more about the actually game (how long it has been around and how it has changed through the years). ’cause it obviously has in the last 20 years.

    [ 18-03-2002: Message edited by: mary beth ]

    #43670
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I never played pencil and paper RPGs or d&d but I was a huge fan of “Dark Sun” especially the computer game series.

    I still occassionaly play online RPGs like Everquest and Dark Ages of Camelot.

    #43671
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    Smartass2002, whatever that was you were playing, it wasn’t Dungeons & Dragons published by Wizards of the Coast (and previously published by TSR). That did not sound like anything I’ve ever played in an any D&D game for the 20 years I’ve played the game.

    Sure, you had fun. But doing all of those extremely bizzare and fantastic things and obtaining all of those unusual powers is not something you do when you are a novice character. Otherwise, there is nothing for you to strive for in the game and you are entirely dependant on whatever the DM can dream up… and that fountain can run dry very quickly playing the way you guys played.

    Let me put it to you another way. If you attempt to play D&D with another dungeon master, you will be completely lost. Do the terms “AC” or “HP” mean anything to you? If not, you’ll have to pick up a rulebook and read it.

    The modern third-edition rules are very good. Much more streamlined than the first two editions. The best way to learn how to play D&D these days is to purchase the Dungeons & Dragons Adventure Game for only $10.

    But unfortunately, your experience with the game has been permanently jaded and I’m afraid you’ll have no interest in playing around with normal, humanoid, medeval, first-level characters that can only swing a sword or cast one spell at a time.

    I’m sorry your experience with D&D has been ruined forever.

    #43672
    Headgehog
    Participant

    I wouldn’t say that his experince has been ruined forever. The first time I played we had no ****ing clue what we were doing. We still look back and laugh at how warped we played. Things like: you get the killing shot,you get all the xp; killing the spelljamer; returning athas to the blue age. True it wasn’t nearly as warped as what Smartarse said, but it was close. The important thing is that he had fun. I look back at my first games/campaign (if you can call it that) as a test run. A way to see what we like and what works. After that we all sat down read the books, and understood the rules and put together some truelly extaordinry games. So don’t lose all hope.

    lexxlurker: I love Dark Sun. I never really did the computer stuff though. Some of my more memorible experinces were on Athas. (After we learned to play right). For a variety of reasons (enough to start a new thread) many players hate Dark Sun. It’s too survivalistic and primitive, its not medival, everythings warped from traditional games. But most people despise it becasue of (gasp) psionics. Which I absolutely love.
    Bruce Cordell did a good job with 3e psionics, but he had to deal with what was given to him. After all was said and done psionics was castrated from its 2e glory. Soemthing many gamers love, I don’t. We have a variety of house rules for psionics that get psions on par with wizards/sorcerrers. Many of those rules are thing Bruce Cordell came out with after the fact. Illithids are my absolute favorite, and I can write pages on why.
    Over winter break I ran a 3e Dark Sun campaign with my group back home. They loved it and called it the best campaign they’ve ever been in. (We’ve all been playing in a large variety of groups over the past 7-8 years, most times seperately, but we all return to our original group when we’re all in town) Personally I thought it could have gone MUCH better. I really needed to play test before I presented it. So the campaign was almost a giant playtest. They just didn’t realize it though. If you want my 3e conversion just email me and I’ll send it to you. WotC has no plans to relase Dark Sun for 3e, and I haven’t heard any plans of someone else making a d20 systems rules for it.

    Marybeth: Almost everythign has changed! Its wayy too extensive to write all the changes here.

    #43673
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by Headgehog:
    Marybeth: Almost everythign has changed! Its wayy too extensive to write all the changes here.


    The basic format has not changed. Only the rules have been streamlined. As was the case 20 years ago, D&D is still all about dungeon-crawling. However, many gamers opt to dispense with maps altogether and focus entirely on role-playing and drama. After years of playing without maps, I’ve decided that it’s much more fun and engaging to have maps and even lead miniatures, if possible.

    Recently I took some D&D-newbie friends through a 1st-level dungeon. And yes, it’s still about marching order, what weapons are ready in-hand, what spells are prepared, etc. There are only subtle, common-sense changes in the game since 20 years ago. You don’t have to kill monsters to gain experience. If you just out-wit them or succeed getting past them to accomplish your goal, you can still get experience. Using the third-edition rules, you can still play the exact same games you played 20 years ago. You just don’t have to stop the game as often to look up rules.

    #43674
    Headgehog
    Participant

    I’d have to agree with everything you said Flamegrape. But my statement to marybeth was about the rules, not he culture of the game. I prefer d20 to thac0! And xp is much easier to remember and caluclate. Okay maybe not fromteh dm’s standpoint. The one thing I don’t like about d20 xp is that you can advance to higher levels way too fast. With 2e it takes a year+ of playing to get to 20th level. Don’t even get me started on how long it took to advanced my Halfling Psionicist to demigod-hood. In 3e you could advance from 1st to 20th level over the summer. 20 adventures should not make an arch-mage or world(plane)wide famous person.
    Planescape is defiantly my favorite campaign setting. You can do anything you want with Planescape! Or the manual of the Planes as its called now.
    *********
    I prefer minitures because it makes life easier when explaining/understanding the combat zone. Unfortunalty they are a bit expensive at times. Sure you can get a bunch of golblins, elves, dwarfs, and other common peices quite easily and cheaply. But try finding a mind flayer, succubus, thri-kreen, or purple worm! Many monster are out of circulation. So its time to hit ebay. I’m embarrased to say how much a spent on one fig! One you get teh figure, now you haev to paint em. (Theres another rant waiting to happen) Of course you could just as easily use coins, counters or goblins to represent that great wyrm white dragon. But you lose a feel to the game that way. Which is another thing, you know how expensive and time consuming it is to do a dragon?!

    #43675
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    I guess I’m lucky since I’ve never felt compelled to paint any of my lead miniatures. The primer-gray color is fine for me. I used to have a few dozen miniatures (including a dragon) but I gave them away to some dumb girl because I thought I’d never want to play D&D again. Now I have a renewed interest because of the the third edition rules.

    Okay, I have to get something straight right now! What exactly do you mean by 3e? Third Edition? THAC0 is an easy way to handle combat, compared to the old cumbersome charts. And what’s d20? A different set or rules? The old rules? I know that a d20 is a twenty-sided die, and now that you mention it, I’ve seen rulebooks in the store with “d20” in the title. Can you explain the difference?

    I still have and still use my ancient DM screens, even though the rules written on them aren’t used anymore! It has cool artwork.

    Have you heard of The Knights of the Dinner Table and the game they play, Hackmaster?

    Oh, and since it’s now common knowledge that we play D&D, let’s be sure to worship Satan and re-enact our game fantasies in the local sewers to cover up our secret homosexuality.

    #43676
    Anonymous
    Guest

    From what I’ve seen of D&D, there’s two versions of it; one is a gameboard version and the other one is a verbal version. I play the verbal version.

    quote

    ok now as someone who played D & D 20 years ago i have just one word to say! Huh? when i played we had elves, trolls, warlocks and the like. i have never heard of a celestial being. or B5 having anything to do with it (obviously, cause, well, it was 20 years ago!)

    There are those, too, but no one ever said our DM stuck to the books. Verbally playing D&D is great, because, you can make up anything, and our DM has a very active imagination!!

    quote

    Otherwise, there is nothing for you to strive for in the game and you are entirely dependant on whatever the DM can dream up… and that fountain can run dry very quickly playing the way you guys played.

    You obviously haven’t met our DM. Lishie is weirder than everyone on this board put together. And if you had a family like hers, you’d have weird ideas galore. They have more weird ideas than I do!!!

    quote

    Let me put it to you another way. If you attempt to play D&D with another dungeon master, you will be completely lost. Do the terms “AC” or “HP” mean anything to you? If not, you’ll have to pick up a rulebook and read it.

    I don’t think I’d get lost. I haven’t yet. Yes, AC and HP do mean things to me, armour class and hit points, fantasy games and fantasy computer games are a hobby of mine.

    quote

    But unfortunately, your experience with the game has been permanently jaded and I’m afraid you’ll have no interest in playing around with normal, humanoid, medeval, first-level characters that can only swing a sword or cast one spell at a time.

    Don’t count on it. I still play Arcanum quite happily. Not to mention my horde of other medieval RPG games!!!

    #43677
    Anonymous
    Guest

    LISHI does things diffrently and the resion that B5 had anything to do with it was max[jessi aka smartasre 2002] traveled throug a protal to the zocalo. and ember has a plan for Maxie ….Ha Ha Ha Ha *coughing fit* ok I’m back now.

    #43678
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by dark_angel3838:
    LISHI does things diffrently and the resion that B5 had anything to do with it was max[jessi aka smartasre 2002] traveled throug a protal to the zocalo. and ember has a plan for Maxie ….Ha Ha Ha Ha *coughing fit* ok I’m back now.


    Just don’t forget the lesson of Expedition To Barrier Peaks. Hi-tech weapons make D&D games unbalanced. It’s not recommended.

    #43679
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote

    LISHI does things diffrently and the resion that B5 had anything to do with it was max[jessi aka smartasre 2002] traveled throug a protal to the zocalo. and ember has a plan for Maxie ….Ha Ha Ha Ha *coughing fit* ok I’m back now.

    Maxie is gonna kick your butt. You may be forgetting that Max also has telekinesis. Any fireballs you sneeze, cough, etc, will suddenly veer back in your direction… while you yourself will get what I now call the Chris Treatment!
    Also, Max can turn invisble and can walk through solid objects. The fireballs can can go straight through me if I chose. Or I can simply turn invisible and walk away.
    So there!!!!

    #43680
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by Smartass 2002:

    Maxie is gonna kick your butt. You may be forgetting that Max also has telekinesis. Any fireballs you sneeze, cough, etc, will suddenly veer back in your direction… while you yourself will get what I now call the Chris Treatment!
    Also, Max can turn invisble and can walk through solid objects. The fireballs can can go straight through me if I chose. Or I can simply turn invisible and walk away.
    So there!!!!


    What level are your characters? 30th?

    #43681
    Anonymous
    Guest

    thanks for clearing that up guys.
    unfortunately i don’t have the time to play or any friends that would be interested. they are too *mature* to play games like this. but when my son gets older i will try to get him interested.

    #43682
    Anonymous
    Guest

    as a fan of the D&D / AD&D based computer games I kinda like D&D but have never played the actual game. As far as I knew [as a youngster] the game had been discontinued but it seems it’s alive and kicking thanks to wizards of the coast.
    Is the game much the same or totally different and what kind of stores sell it? I want to get me a game of D&D.

    #43683
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Godzilla:
    As far as I knew [as a youngster] the game had been discontinued but it seems it’s alive and kicking thanks to wizards of the coast.


    WoTC is a great big monster of a company, almost to the point of squeezing out the competition. Not a good thing for variety.

    quote:


    Originally posted by Godzilla:

    Is the game much the same or totally different and what kind of stores sell it? I want to get me a game of D&D.


    Its basic principles are the same though switched around a bit since AD&D. If you want to start gaming a good bookstore might stock it but I suggest looking up a proper gaming store from the Yellow Pages.

    #43684
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote

    What level are your characters? 30th?

    No, fifth. We just have these funky talents, and it’s the fun campaign I’m talking about!

    #43685
    Deliena
    Participant

    WoTC are not a big company – they’ve managed to buy every roleplaying game in existence because they are owned by Matel.

    WoTC nearly went bust about 5 years ago, when they sent out all those Pokeman card games on Sale or Return. When the Pokeman bubble burst – they suddenly had a stockroom full of them.

    To be honest AD&D or even D&D isn’t the greatest game in the world – and it never was, however, it is a great introduction to fantasy roleplaying, which can be expanded using better games, such as GURPS or Rolemaster.

    If you like Dark Future games SLA Industries by Nightfall games is definately The Daddy. You play a SLA operative (a hired killer), and you perform ops whilst being watched on television by the cynical populus. It’s kinda Paranoia meets 2000AD meets Bladerunner… very complex gameworld, dead easy game system.

    Deliena (who roleplays every week – and live once a month doing White Wolf Vampire).

    Anyone wanted to get together to roleplay in Glasgow is welcome to get in touch.

    #43686
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Anyone else play Baldur’s Gate here?
    And what about online D&D? I just heard about it. How on earth do you play D&D online???

    #43687
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Yeah, I’ve got both BG and BG2:SoA, both with expansions. I have also ben interested in AD&D since an uncle gave me a starter box set when I was about 10. Played a few games with disinterested family members but I kept an imterest in it. I have a few rule-books and the rest in electronic format, so I have a grasp of the rules, supported by the AD&D PC games. I also like the look of the Planescape campaign setting; Torment is another good RPG PC game. I never have the oppurtunity to play these kind of games (I also like M:tG. And abbreviations. ) but, since I’ll be going to Uni soon, I’m sure the oppurtunity will arise.

    #43688
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Wow!

    #43689
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Torment was a brilliant game, but it drew primarily on the the Lady’s world, which was sort of (and I say that loosely) limiting.

    I play 3e a bit and enjoy it a lot. My group has a set DM, which can be annoying as his storylines don’t change much, but hey, he knows his job. But I do have a question for you Jessi… how in the holies do you play without using the books?? My group live by them!! I refer to my books at least four or five times per adventure! This Lishie sounds like a bad DM. I suggest you get a new one.

    #43690
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote

    But I do have a question for you Jessi… how in the holies do you play without using the books??

    We use the books, but Leshi (I’m afraid I spelled her name wrong, ah well, I’m not her sister) does the fun campaign. Everyone else uses the right stuff.

    quote

    This Lishie sounds like a bad DM. I suggest you get a new one.

    Watch your mouth. She’s a good DM. Her sister is on the SadBoard and she intends to register also. Watch it.

    #43691
    Anonymous
    Guest

    hi sister did you get your e-mail? I was suffing the net for some sim skins and I found that link! It was not my fult that I found that site. call me I have something to tell you a about mum and mardi.

    #43692
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Please ignore the post if you’re not Leshi, who will be along soon.

    #43693
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Speakin’ aboot D&D and RPGs, are there any good cyberpunk and/or post apocalyptic themed ones on the Net? You know, something like Fallout or Syndicate?

    #43694
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    But I do have a question for you Jessi… how in the holies do you play without using the books??

    This Lishie sounds like a bad DM. I suggest you get a new one.


    You people are way to dedicated to the books.
    Some of us are poor. We can’t afford stupid $25 books that TELL you how to use your imagination and have fun. Some of us can only afford to make friends with mentally disturbed people who come up with crazy **** out of no where. My Dungeon Master, Josh, has a very active imagination and comes up with great stories without using books at all. The role playing game I play is a verbal one and it is one my friend made up, but it is very good because it is our own story and that’s what we focus on. We don’t focus on how to cast this or what’s the AC for that, we just worry about making a fun adventure story that makes sense. We do use rules but we don’t feel the need to bog ourselves down with rules and we have a good time. Leishi is not a bad DM she does things different and no one should say otherwise. I have had bad Dungeon Masters before and that focus on nothing but the rules. As a result the story line sucked and I quickly lost interest.

    Now I’m not saying rules are bad. You need rules otherwise the story goes crazy and its just stupid. But you shouldn’t feel handicapped by them. Every good DM should know how to improvise, to build a good solid plot, to play in character and portray characters well, and should be creative enough to captivate and thrill his/her players. There is nothing wrong with breaking from the script and doing your own thing.

    And Flamegrape advancing in character isn’t everything. It’s great to get more powerful and everything but I rather play a wuss just so long as he was interesting character. I think of role-playing like acting; whenever I’m playing I think how would this character react to what’s going on, what would HE do in a situation like this. I’ve played a lot of different characters and they all have different goals. When I’m playing I try to achieve my character’s goal and that involves getting massive power and ruling the world, great, I get massive power and rule the world. That’s what I enjoy in a good role-playing seeing things from a different point of view and getting absorb into a whole new world with its own rules and wonders.

    As rules go, I’ve heard good things about GURPS and would be interested to learn more. They sound like they are pretty easy to follow and they seem appropriate for a verbal role-playing game much like the one I play. Have you ever played Vampire: the Masquerade? I played it for the first time two weeks ago and I can’t wait for our next meeting. I’m playing a Nosferatu (naturally ) named Izambard, inspired by Prince, of course! I plan to play him in that same manipulative, deceitful fashion. Anyway, I’ve said my peace. I have to go cry about Lexx ending now. Cheery bye!!

    #43695
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote

    I’m playing a Nosferatu (naturally ) named Izambard, inspired by Prince, of course! I plan to play him in that same manipulative, deceitful fashion.

    GGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
    EVIL!!! EEEEEVILLLLLLL!!!!!!!
    Oh, what am I saying? I victimise the cleric whenever I can!
    Stuff it.
    YOU ARE EEEEVILLLLLL!!!!

    #43696
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’m an old role playing head myself and must say that when it comes to playing AD&D there is nothing like playing a Nobel Drow!!(that is a Drow that is a nobel of their house).The only experience that came close was when I played Mr.Majestic in AD&D.

    #43697
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I like drow too and one of my charactors is a drow and another one is a half-fiend half-drow. (Ironically, the rest of the party are half-celestrials and I don’t think the excuse ‘just because I’m evil doesn’t mean I’m a bad person’ is a good way to get along with them!)
    Do Noble Drow have different stats than normal drow?

    #43698
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Spells,spells,spells.It’s all about the spells! Noble Drow can cast their race spells more frequently and they gat more of them starting off.In addition to this, they have what is called a House Insignia that must be kept on their person having skin contact to work.What this does is add another..oh…ten spells to their arsenal that they can use about twelve times a day(each!!). It’s been a long time so you might want to look these facts up,but I’m certainly in the ball park on this. I would say that if you have a passion for Drow and pick the CORRECT alignment(and of course play intelligently)..you would be undefeatable(barring bad die rolls).

    #43699
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Oooooohhhhhhh… I LIKE that! Now, how to convince any of my DMs to let me be a drow (I’m banned – they say I like drow too much, but can you really blame me?)

    #43700
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by Kamelian:
    Oooooohhhhhhh… I LIKE that! Now, how to convince any of my DMs to let me be a drow (I’m banned – they say I like drow too much, but can you really blame me?)


    Being an evil player-character in a group of good player-characters is difficult, if not impossible. If I were DM, I would allow you to play a drow character. Furthermore, I would allow the other player-characters to kill you because your character is loathesome and evil. You’d be worth some good experience points, too!

    #43701
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote

    If I were DM, I would allow you to play a drow character. Furthermore, I would allow the other player-characters to kill you because your character is loathesome and evil. You’d be worth some good experience points, too!

    A few points…
    1. I’m currently a half-fiend half-drow in a group of homicidally-inclined half-celestials and one hound archon and they haven’t killed me YET.
    2. I am simply outspoken, not loathsome!
    3. I LIKE EVIL!!!!!!
    4. No one is getting my XP!!!!!!

    #43702
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by Kamelian:

    A few points…
    1. I’m currently a half-fiend half-drow in a group of homicidally-inclined half-celestials and one hound archon and they haven’t killed me YET.
    2. I am simply outspoken, not loathsome!
    3. I LIKE EVIL!!!!!!
    4. No one is getting my XP!!!!!!


    Eeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww….

    #43703
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote

    Eeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww….

    What are you complaining about now? I’m not really THAT bad! I haven’t even tried to kill anyone yet! Note the yet…
    I don’t suppose anyone knows anything exact about Noble Drow?

    [ 16-06-2002: Message edited by: Khamilian ]

    #43704
    Anonymous
    Guest

    she is not that bad!! and if she trys to kill the one of the party members she will get killed herself…..

    oh MY SISTER IS A GOOD DM AND THAT IS THAT!!!

    #43705
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    I sense anger in you.

    #43706
    Anonymous
    Guest

    See, I TOLD you I wasn’t that bad! And I’d agree with Oracle, if I were you. I’m not disagreeing because of the fine point that if I do, my half-fiend half-drow charactor in that campaign might die and so might my half-elven charactor in MY campaign!
    Damn, having your best friend in your own campaign can be SO annoying when it comes down to annoyances!

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