Happy Birthday America!!!!!

[Fatguy]

I will spare you my usual annual rant about rights and freedoms (on another board someone is displaying Confederate flags as a response to my praise of rights and freedoms in America 🙄 ). Instead – I would just like to say that these times are critical for Americans if they are to keep their freedoms and rights as enshrined in their constitution.

Homeland Security and the Patriot Act seem to me to be the greatest threat to American individual rights and freedoms. The loss of a right or freedom need not necessarily be the government telling you that you can not do something; rather…..it will be the fear of speaking your mind, the fear of doing what you want to do, the fear of going where you want to go. Americans are looked upon by the rest of the world as being arrogant and boisterous…..because they never had to fear speaking their minds….. I will spare you the rest of the rant. However – if you are an American; remember that so goes the rights of Americans…..so go the rights of the rest of the world – true….. Happy Birthday America!!!!!

Maurice

[theFrey]

Cool firework link. http://joeandsara.com/july4th/

[Jhevz]

8) Frey,
I like that 1; it’s definitely a keeper; I’ll have to show it to my parents either tonight or tomorrow; either way, I think they’ll enjoy the show. It’ll remind them of the Summer Spectacular at Cameron Park Lake last Saturday.
Thanks for the web site & the show. 🙂

American to American,
Jhevz 😉

[nursewhen]

I’m sorry fatguy, I’m struggling with some of your ideas here.

Fatguy wrote:

Americans are looked upon by the rest of the world as being arrogant and boisterous…..because they never had to fear speaking their minds…..

I can’t speak for the rest of the world here, but I find being told what I think and why by somebody who knows nothing about me to be a tad on the arrogant side. (But would like to add that I’m not extrapolating this opinion to include the entire nation).

I also dislike being lumped into ‘the rest of the world’ as though the rest of the world were a minority group instead of a VAST array of humankind far outnumbering the population of North America.

I also have no fear of speaking my mind.

I notice you used the past tense ‘never had to fear speaking their minds’. Does this mean that historically Americans have always been free to say and believe what they want?

What about the McCarthy witch hunts? Anybody with a socialist bent was hunted down and stamped on. Socialism/communism may not be everybody’s cup of tea but criminalising anybody who so much as thinks it worthy of debate is censorship and an infringement on an individual’s freedom of speech. (‘I don’t agree with what you’re saying but I will fight for your right to say it’ went to the wall on that one.)

Fatguy wrote:

remember that so goes the rights of Americans…..so go the rights of the rest of the world – true…..

I’m sorry, I don’t see any link between my rights and yours. Perhaps you would explain.

[Anonymous]

Yep, a bit political that Fatguy 🙂

But, happy birthday the States!

Down with the Brits! 😀

[Anonymous]

“People are by nature political animals” (Aristotle)

“Freedom is a myth” (McGoohan)

Happy birthday to the Colonies.

[Anonymous]

It’s a real accomplishment how far USA and UK have gone in 300 years. Generally speaking the UK is easily considered the 51st state in terms of how we feel in the States about you guys. Hell your government is on our TV half the time on C-span. And boy there’s nothing more fun than watching PM Questions and Blair rip into the conservatives. “Would the right gentlemen from Essex kindly present his lips and kiss my arse.” We need more rhetoric like that in our Congress believe me.

That’s not meant to disrespect your autonomy or your sovereign rights, just a testament to how far our two nations have come since going to war over 200 years ago. Any attack upon Britain would be seen as an attack upon the USA in the eyes of our government and the majority of our people. I doubt seriously there’s any two nations more united in the world philosophically and politically.

July 4 has become more about freedom and democracy than it has about our whooping the Brits 😈

Of course as long as Mel Gibson makes movies like “The Patriot” which are revoltingly inaccurate (albeit entertaining) it’s hard to make that point stick.

[streudel]

Am I the only one who sees the Fourth of July as an excuse to eat potato salad and hot dogs and get drunk? For me, it means nothing more than a day off with pay.

Instead – I would just like to say that these times are critical for Americans if they are to keep their freedoms and rights as enshrined in their constitution

I don’t wish to get into a long dissertation on the state of freedom in the U.S. I only wish to ask how exactly I am to accomplish the aforementioned feat of keeping my constitutional rights enshrined. When my elected (?) leader chooses to ignore the will of the people and wage war, what exactly am I to do about that? Don’t tell me that the Congress is supposed to keep a leash on him, because we all know there are ways around the system of checks and balances. Does the expression ” police action ” mean anything to anyone?

We also know that the political ideas that a candidate espouses are up for sale as soon as that candidate gets into office. We also know ( I don’t think I need to cite examples to support this ) that removal of an elected official is a tedious process that takes so long the officials term of office will be up and the damage done before he can be removed.

Americans are not unaware of the fact that our so called freedom is eroding daily. My question to you is this: If you lived in the States, what would you do to change the system? Lead a charge up Capitol Hill carrying a musket? I know you’d say work through the system, but believe me, I’ve had my experience in the American justice system, and it will open your eyes to what it’s all about. If you have a cause worth fighting for, you’d better hope someone with money or influence has an agenda that mates to yours easily. Otherwise you are SOL.

But don’t feel badly, Fatguy, there are many between these borders that suffer under the misapprehension that their voice is heard, too.

However – if you are an American; remember that so goes the rights of Americans…..so go the rights of the rest of the world – true….. Happy Birthday America!!!!!

I’m afraid you’ll have to explain that one to me, too. Did the US Supreme court suddenly start reviewing foreign law? What exactly do we Americans have to do with the constitutional rights of citizens of other nations?

I don’t mean to sound apathetic. There are undoubtedly times when U.S. intervention has been a necessary thing where human rights are concerned. However, we’re not the only nation who has defended the human rights of others. We did not win WWII single handedly, now did we? We are far from the only voices on the subject of freedom. We are not the only democracy on the planet.

I guess George Bush isn’t the only one that thinks the U.S. is the center of the Universe, the big Daddy protector of the world at large. Me, I’d love to help defend freedom everywhere, but first I have to figure out a way for my husband to find a job in the midst of a crashing economy caused by Bush’s insistence on playing hall monitor for the entire world.

[Fatguy]

Wow…..I did not expect to get this reaction from my well wishes…..

Point 1. Actually addressed before most of the newer posters on that “other board”. America and it’s constitution are modern and the rights fairly absolute. The UK and Canada; for example, do not have absolute individual rights and freedoms.

The United States Of America by it’s rights and freedoms and the media (also a form of foreign propaganda) show the world the rights and freedoms some have – and in this way…..slow the erosion of those rights and freedoms in countries that do not have absolute rights and freedoms. As governments naturally seek to erode these rights and freedoms in the States, you will see a corresponding reduction in rights and freedoms in countries that do not have the enshrined rights and freedoms in their constitution. A more practical example is the States bringing some sweeping powers of investigation or “eaves-dropping” and later Canada adopting these measures (though we have no terrorist threat). in fact we have CIA /FBI “working” with the RCMP (in Canada in conflict with our rights to our own jurisdiction) against possible terrorist threat. Under new rules established in Canada as a direct result of American influence – we now have people being charged and tried without disclosure to the defense (I don’t even know if the person in question has access to his lawyer); and as an aside – our Privacy Commissioner was been discredited and forced to resign (i.e. he criticized the government’s new “eaves-dropping” powers). I just wanted to show the connection between American freedom and rights and their influence in the rest of the world. I feel that it was American mass media displaying it’s culture that helped bring down Communism; China is addressing this problem by trying to close off its’ culture from the world – but probably will not be too successful.

Point 2. Freedom is a state of mind and not the physical removal of some impediment. You have to feel free to speak, act, and move about without self-censure….. As long as a people “feels” truly free; they will always win over any oppressive government. Governments are masters at “crowd control” as they use the media and other methods to instill fear in the populous and thus erode the freedoms of the population as a whole. Since America has freedoms and rights enshrined in it’s constitution; the government can only keep the populous “quiet” as it does whatever possibly unpopular things it wishes by creating a crises where dissention is frowned upon and unacceptable (as was the case with the war ). Just look at the problems noteworthy Americans received when they questioned American policy; many who would speak out remained silent….. Bottom line is that freedom can be taken away in a “free” society – but Americans are in the best position to fight back because their constitution gives them the means to.

I am replying “off-the-cuff” and not my usual motivated self (so my arguments are vulnerable) as the freedom issue is getting old with me and I would like to pass the torch to the younger folk (I am waiting…..). Talk to me about new ways of thinking 😆 – that is where my mind is at now…..

Maurice

[streudel]

I can see some of your points, Fatguy, but I still say your average American is helpless to effect change in a truly non-violent way. These enshrined rights that you speak of can be violated if the person who is being violated has no access to the media, or is too poor for representation. This has been going on long before the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

I don’t want to get into all the hairy details of it, but I have seen what can happen to personal rights through my own experience. The police have been violating the right to disclosure, search and seizure laws, and such back when those rights were still considered sacrosanct. They do it alot more frequently than you’d think.

Now, I’m not saying one shouldn’t fight these injustices. Indeed, I fought these things very publicly, and won, I might add. But not without great cost. And only because I had access to the media in a way alot of people don’t. Through the media, I was able to seek out those with the influence I needed to beat the man. More often than not, individuals don’t have these weapons in their arsenal.

I think it’s a sad state of affairs that other countries follow the U.S. example for policy making. It is true that the U.S. puts pressure on other governments to set policy in a fashion they find agreeable. If these nations are unable to take on the bully, how are individual Americans to do this? For as much as you are hoping American citizens will stand up to our government, we’re kinda hoping for other nations to band together and say, ” Hey, lets not let one nation try to set the agenda for the whole planet.”

I don’t see either happening any time soon. I hate to say it, but the only way the U.S. will stop being such an overbearing influence is when GW crashes the economy in this country, or he does something so reprehensible that people rise up in revolt.

I am replying “off-the-cuff” and not my usual motivated self (so my arguments are vulnerable) as the freedom issue is getting old with me and I would like to pass the torch to the younger folk (I am waiting…..). Talk to me about new ways of thinking – that is where my mind is at now…..

I feel exactly the same way. I fought back when I was 20. I have had life thoroughly stomp the sh@t out of me in the 10 years since, so I’d rather leave this to someone younger and more idealistic. I have no solutions.

[Fatguy]

I feel exactly the same way. I fought back when I was 20. I have had life thoroughly stomp the sh@t out of me in the 10 years since, so I’d rather leave this to someone younger and more idealistic. I have no solutions.

Yipes…..wrote a long reply and forgot to log-in…..all lost. I to am too lazy to rewrite my freedom fight rant. Forget about the youngsters…..only grey hair fights for rights and freedoms now. I spent several months last year ranting and raving about rights and freedoms in a pathetic attempt to make an impression on our youth (on this board and LEXX.com) – a waste of time….. In it’s place…..I will show some pictures of some friends of mine protesting the new gun laws on our Parliament Hill (p.s. not just about guns…..but , freedom from self-incrimination, search and seisure, property rights, mens-rea, etc……) – like you…..I have no solutions:

http://webhome.idirect.com/~rem223/Burn

http://webhome.idirect.com/~rem223/Turnbull

By the way…..the pictures are the protest on
Parliament Hill up here in Canada where protesters burned registration certificates and the leader (Turnbull) being arrested (I love that guy…..A Korean War hero and a fellow Edmontonian – long may his trigger finger twitch…..).

Maurice

[nursewhen]

Ack, I forgot the well wishing! 😯

Happy belated 4th of July, USA, hope you all had a good one. 😀

(Well I did say it twice over at Lexx.com, so please forgive me for forgetting here 😀 )

”LexxLurker” wrote:

It’s a real accomplishment how far USA and UK have gone in 300 years. Generally speaking the UK is easily considered the 51st state in terms of how we feel in the States about you guys.

OOOeerrrr 😯 Don’t call the UK the 51st state in a pub over here, you could get into trouble. 😉
Much as I am pleased we have such good relations with America, I don’t think we’ve been annexed yet 😆

”LexxLurker” wrote:

Hell your government is on our TV half the time on C-span. And boy there’s nothing more fun than watching PM Questions and Blair rip into the conservatives. “Would the right gentlemen from Essex kindly present his lips and kiss my arse.” We need more rhetoric like that in our Congress believe me.

Yep, our government can be incredibly entertaining at times, though I’m afraid it’s not so much fun when you’re watching from the inside.
When I see them all doing the ‘hohoho’ routine and pretending to be doubled up with laughter at somebody’s ‘witty’ comment, I feel like getting in there, punching heads and telling them to stop behaving like a bunch of naughty little schoolboys and try taking the job seriously. They seem to put more energy into scoring points off each other than they do into running the country.

”LexxLurker” wrote:

That’s not meant to disrespect your autonomy or your sovereign rights, just a testament to how far our two nations have come since going to war over 200 years ago. Any attack upon Britain would be seen as an attack upon the USA in the eyes of our government and the majority of our people. I doubt seriously there’s any two nations more united in the world philosophically and politically.

I am very pleased with our good relations with America, but I wish for good relations with everbody. I wish that our relations with our near neighbours and allies in Europe were better.
At the risk of sounding churlish, I’m afraid the erosion of our health service (once the envy of the world) and the recent explosion of personal injury litigation is seen by many as an example of Britain following America’s lead and many people here regret that this is happening.
I truly appreciate having America as a friend, but I also wish for us to retain our autonomy and not become a poor copy.

”LexxLurker” wrote:

July 4 has become more about freedom and democracy than it has about our whooping the Brits 😈

Pleased to hear it.
(You bash those Brits good and proper. :wink:)

[nursewhen]

Fatguy, thank you for expanding on your statement

Fatguy wrote:

remember that so goes the rights of Americans…..so go the rights of the rest of the world

At least now I can see where you’re coming from and to a certain extent I do agree as I have myself noticed an element of copycatting as I mentioned to LexxLurker.

However, I don’t think we’ve quite reached the point where we’re following blindly after America’s lead. And though we don’t have our rights written into a constitution, we’re still actually very good at following due process.
After all, having rights written into a constitution gives no benefit whatsoever if they can be ignored at will.

Dealing with terrorists is an issue of its own and I don’t believe that our government saw an opportunity to slip in a quick copycat change. I think they saw a real and immediate threat and acted accordingly.

[Fatguy]

Re: Nursewhen –

The thing I like about Sadgeezer is that it keeps me from going insane as I clean up my basement this weekend….. 🙄

Individual rights and freedoms can not be ignored in the States because they are absolute. You may pull the wool over their eyes; but eventually their constitution will strip the onerous powers from oppressive government (which is exactly what that constitution was drafted to do).

What we in the Commonwealth need to do is to shed the Monarchy in all it’s forms and begin a new with a modern constitution (like the United States Of America). The Monarchy is quaint and a tie with the past – but an anachronism with a modern democracy. No flame here Nursewhen; as a Canadian we still need royal assent to all our laws so this discussion is in-the-family; but there is a major push to become a republic in the next few years. I would push for an absolute constitution (i.e. no “not withstanding” provisions that can be invoked to strip citizens of their rights….. as is the case in Canada’s present constitution). This may be just a pipe dream; but I fear the best time to have enacted these modern day constitutions was in the immediate post WW2 period.

As for the modern day “boogie man” – the terrorist; I personally would not make any amendments to the rights and freedoms of the whole for this tiny group. The “terrorist” is just a term to scare people into believing that these people are not deserving of the basic human rights afforded all that set foot into a country. The States have gotten around most of the constitutional problems by doing all of the dirty work in Quantanamo(sp) Bay rather than on “real” American soil. I still do not know the end result of non-Americans being treated differently than Americans in due process, etc…… In the U.K.; you have the terrorist legislation that allows detention for almost unlimited amounts of time and without formal charges (correct me if I am wrong here). I am a firm believer that the law must apply to everyone – EVERYONE or the law means nothing….. Also, Canada is no sweetheart in this matter as I mentioned in a previous post. You will just have to be a bit more thorough dealing with “terrorists” – just what is the difference between Timothy Mcvey(sp) and Osama Bin Laden(sp)? If the times warranted it, one could just ignore the constitution and do the expedient thing – but we should not follow this course with the blessings of our constitution.

More of a rant this time but Britain and Canada may very well need to draft new constitutions for the new republics; the constitution of the United States Of America is not a bad one to copy.

💡 💡 💡 💡 💡 Hey- 100 posts!!!!! Do I get a prize? 🙄 😕

Maurice

[Anonymous]

Fatguy wrote:

💡 💡 💡 💡 💡 Hey- 100 posts!!!!! Do I get a prize? 🙄 😕 Maurice

Yep 🙂

Send me your address by email and I’ll send you a Sadgeezer keyring (it’s a cheepo plastic one so don’t get too excited 🙂 )

That goes for any other 100 plus poster too o’course 🙂

[Fatguy]

SadGeezer wrote:

Fatguy wrote:

💡 💡 💡 💡 💡 Hey- 100 posts!!!!! Do I get a prize? 🙄 😕 Maurice

Yep 🙂

Send me your address by email and I’ll send you a Sadgeezer keyring (it’s a cheepo plastic one so don’t get too excited 🙂 )

That goes for any other 100 plus poster too o’course 🙂[/quote]

Thanks Sadgeezer!

One other thing….. Rereading my last post made me think that I sound like some form of supporter for the rights of terrorists – it is not. What you have to understand is:

1. A person can not be branded with the term “terrorist” without evidence.

2. Until the state proves that person is a terrorist; he is to be treated as innocent until proven guilty (as in most – but not all countries).

3. The only tool available for the state to fairly try a person for terrorist acts is a trial and jury of impartial people who will render a judgement based on the facts and the rules of evidence, etc…… The defendant’s lawyer should also have full disclosure of the prosecution’s evidence so as to mount a defence, etc…… The defendant should also have access to a lawyer so that person understands his rights and the procedures of the system of jurisprudence. The trial should be public.

4. If acquitted; the accused is to be immediately released. If convicted – that individual is to be sentenced within the confines of punishment stated in the law (i.e. no death penalty in a country that has outlawed the death penalty…..).

We – live in a society of citizens…..not savages. To allow some official unlimited power to detain anyone without good reason, to assassinate suspected people without trial, to impose on the privacy of another without providing evidence (of that need) to an member of the judiciary – are marks of a retrograde society. We – are above that.

There are bad people out there – but we are better than them because we are fair, we are upfront, and we live by a code….. The terrorist tries to create chaos by his actions – a society can never bow to the terrorists wishes by chucking it’s most valued commodity – it’s constitution. It is a worn out phrase – but all you ever have in the end – are your rights and freedoms…..

Maurice

[Author]

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