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Warning Will Robinson, Warning, warning… Ranting American.
This afternoon I heard the Bushly one say that he sympathized with the unemployed people in Ohio who are upset with outsourcing. He said that we needed to work hard to get people re-trained so they could go look for the jobs of the future.
What frincking jobs? Manufacturing jobs? Oh wait, we already have sent lots of them out of country. High tech? Hummm, bummer that with IT and programming jobs are already leaving and the wages for the positions that are left falling like rocks. Clerical or call center positions? Oh, no, no, no. Sorry those are leaving in droves also.
Anyone called a help center lately? Anyone have any idea where their banking information is going? Anyone know where their health benefits are being processed? Where are your test results being read?
While I have been aware of this problem for a while. Last Monday it was brought to my attention when I called Exxon, my gas card company, with a problem. The call center was in India, and when I called the US branch of Exxon in Atlanta, I was told that they have facilities all over the world and that sometimes they combine functions to save money. Really? Upon closer questioning “Dave” admitted to me that Exxon/Mobil has no gas stations in India, and was unable to explain what else in India, this call center serviced.
I myself have no problem with people in various parts of the world making a living. I how ever do not think my tax dollars should be spent to give jobs to people in other countries when the unemployment rate is so high here. (Off shore centers that process calls and claims and are goverment funded, what a concept. I also don’t think that it is realistic to expect that we will continue to produce highly trained computer programmers, engineers, and doctors if we expect them to pay off loans made to American colleges while American businesses drive down wages by hiring off shore workers at a fraction of the price.
While I was at my conference last week, I listened to several talks by prominent Canadian labor leaders who are also trouble by similar problems in Canada.
Sigh….. Sorry, you know I try not to rant on Politics, but the blatter spewing from Bush’s republican supporters on CNN this evening, just set me off. 🙂
He seems oblivious to the truth, or at the very least believes we are all so stupid we’ll believe anything he says.
We allow a set amount of visas (H-1B) each year for jobs, by Feburary those quotas are already met for the entire year but Bush recently decided to double the visas, allowing companies to import even more cheap labor. And he’s again reviewing the policy claiming 200,000 a year, isn’t nearly enough. Yes that’s right, 200,000 people in only 2 months. Each one with a guarenteed job upon arrival for the H-1B visa, yet only 10,000 jobs were created in Janurary.
Why pay an American programmer 80k a year when you can import an Indian for 35k?
I have nothing against giving jobs to people on visas currently living in the states, but to import them reduces them to nothing more than just another foreign resource, and reminds me of something else, but I wont go there.
But thats Capitalism unfortunatly, but the Government could simply cancel the program or at the very least knock it back to what it was in 1996: 65,000 a year.
Bush has also been incredibly stupid on the handling of his re-election campaign. If he had been smart he would’ve kept his head down and not assulted his Democratic opponents. The election is his to lose, and he hasn’t made a smart move yet.
He also claimed that Democrats “Want to put a wall up around America.” Implying Kerry will isolate us further, if that is even possible.
His domestic policy and military spending are ludicrious, you don’t fight guerilla terrorists with massive armies, but maybe he will prove 6000 years of military history incorrect. Somewhere Sun-Tzu is crying.
I also usually avoid the political stuff, but I have to say I completely agree. What exactly does retraining accomplish if there is nothing in the field?
They offered Mr. Pet “retraining” after Gateway laid him off last year. Turns out they meant they would pay for his books if he took more computer classes. Why? So he can get a job for half the pay or less at Best Buy?
Now he’s moved on to Pharmacy Tech, since there are so many older people it’s actually kinda booming, and probably will continue to do so…
right up until Social Security runs out in a few years. 🙄
Pet
I’m not gonna rant. and I’m not gonna list all the other problems. But your U.S. “Voluntary Paid” Tax forms are too not going to be looked at by our government or even civilians of this country the’re going overseas too. Something else to chew on. Being Laid off form Lucent due to mismanagement, and overseas manufacturing it’s now to add the Sci-Fi part on this post. They can bite my shiny metal ass.
Thank You.
thefrey,
I feel a chain-reaction rant coming on. Sorry, everyone.
I usually avoid politics like a rash that has no known ointment, but it’s hard to ignore these days when it’s being jabbed in your face like a pointed stick (please excuse the simile overload). Having been recently unemployed in Ohio thanks to layoffs, I found W’s visit especially galling. (Fortunately, I clawed my way back into the graphic design biz again). Everything he said was the usual campaign nonsense, but it still raised my hackles.
I’ve been less than thrilled with his administration, and it just keeps getting worse. My nephew is in his tenth month of night patrols in Baghdad. I hope his luck holds out. What a mess! I apologize for America, everyone. Not all of us want to “fix” the rest of the world.
My dad is a career kneejerk Republican. You know things are bad when he’s already declared he’s voting for Kerry.
Doesn’t the Bush Dynasty count as one of those tyrannies W is always rambling on about eradicating? When will the hypocrisy end?
The campaigning has already gotten ugly. It’s going to be a very long year. I wish I could plug my ears until election day. It’s all so empty, but it still provokes me.
Dismounting soapbox. Stay hopeful, my droogs.
This is a touchy subject, that I’m all too passionate about. As an engineering student, outsourcing of technical jobs is a major concern of mine. I’m not going to school for 7 years, just so my job can be outsourced to Habib, before I can pay off my student loans. Luckily (for me) my discipline isn’t very popular in India (or out of the US for that matter) so I don’t have too much to worry about in that regard. But still, American capitalists scare me! I really do want to remain an engineer in 10 years, and would rather not be teaching high school physics!
I don’t have too much a problem with outsourcing unskilled labor. Yes its costing American jobs, but there’s plenty of unskilled jobs already available. Just most Americans are too damn lazy to take them. I have a friend whose been unemployed for months, not because she’s can’t find a job, but because she can’t find anything she’s willing to do. She really needs to get over it. Being a cashier at department store is no different from being a clerk at a corner store.
Its outsourcing skilled/technical labor that scares me. Its more then just saving money. Its the destruction of our society. If the western world is going to start sending all of its technical work to other countries, its NOT going to remain at the top very long. I enjoy living in the world superpower thank-you. I have no desire to live in some desolate eastern European, post cold war nation.
Seriously, I wouldn’t have gone into engineering if I thought I wasn’t guaranteed a good job when I graduated. I’m not like all those liberal arts majors. 😉 Its also why I stayed away from physics and mathematics Without motivation to suffer through the pain of engineering school, very few (EVEN LESS) people are going to choose thse feilds.
This whole mess started a decade ago when there wasn’t enough programmers here, so they imported some from India. I have no problem with importing people because we don’t have an adequate supply. (Too many people majoring in pysch instead of Comp Sci). Our country is built on hard working immigrants looking for a better life, and working hard to achieve it! Then some pencil neck realized they could outsource the programming for an fifth of the cost of a domestic programmer. Now its spread into other feilds like engineering as well as grunt unskilled (white collar) labor.
This is more then economics. We all know that when companies save money on production, they still increase the price of the product anyway, so it really can’t be justified Companies are sacrificing long term planning (and the education of the country) for short term gains!
Not my best writing, but I’m too sensitive about this to write clearly
Post realization about my post. I’m not trying to sound like an arrogant American, full of nationalist pride. I just like my home the way it is (or was pre Bush).
FrostGeezer wrote:Having been recently unemployed in Ohio thanks to layoffs, I found W’s visit especially galling. (Fortunately, I clawed my way back into the graphic design biz again). Everything he said was the usual campaign nonsense, but it still raised my hackles.
I’ll do you one better. In the 2000 election, Cheney was campaigning in Sante Fe (I was in nearby Albuquerque at the time
). His stop there was to promote how the republican’s are pro military and he pointed out all the military bases that were closed in the Clinton/Gore years. Which is really fucking stupid. It was that bastard (then secretary of war (defense)) and then current pres Bush, who ordered closed most of those facilities. Had he been elected to a second term, the facilities would have closed during their rein! Clinton/Gore inherited the already scheduled closings. One of those facilities was the Phila Naval Ship Yard. Of which my father was one of the 2500 employees they cut. He found a job elsewhere shortly before it closed. Many of the other workers didn’t. I couldn’t believe Cheney pulled that shit. If you’re gonna lay of ten of thousands of people, at least have the chutzpah to claim responsibility!I’ve been less than thrilled with his administration, and it just keeps getting worse. My nephew is in his tenth month of night patrols in Baghdad. I hope his luck holds out. What a mess! I apologize for America, everyone. Not all of us want to “fix” the rest of the world.
When I was in London a couple months ago, I found myself apologizing a few times. Trying to explain that half of us really don’t like where things are going!
Doesn’t the Bush Dynasty count as one of those tyrannies W is always rambling on about eradicating? When will the hypocrisy end?
I need to correct you a little there. This is actually the Reagan Dynasty. Dubya is Emperor Bush II of the Reagan Dynasty.
Unskilled labor is a totally different subject imo. But Headge you hit the nail on the head.
I’m actually for the expediency of granting citizenship as well. As far as I’m concerned anyone who comes to this country seeking an honest days wage, and fundamentally believes in the freedoms we do is an American in my eyes. Our country was and continues to be built around such people.
I mention the problem of Capitalism because it’s a system which rewards exploitation and rarely punishes it. But when it does, we feast like sharks upon the victims not realizing just how widespread the corruption is. Hell, I need only point at some 60-year old Homemaker recently found guilty. How many people have gone to prison over Worldcom, Enron, the recent Haliburton scandals?
Knowing how rewarding this system is only encourages the outsourcing of jobs, which is why I think it’s the governents responsibility to drop the visas back down to 65,000 and not budge an inch.
The tech boom is over. The limits were raised because we flat out could not keep up with demand as above posters have mentioned.
The bottom line is that a very select few people are making billions, at the expense of Americas future, and the Republicans in the House and Senate are nothing more than an extention of Bush’s despotism.
These new indecency laws are driving me up a freaking wall as well, especially since it’s just a tool for Bush to knock anyone off the air that criticizes him. Hail George Putin. But this is another rant for another time.
Hi Fellow Posters,
I too don’t like to discuss politics; 1) I get upset, 2) I feeling my point isn’t being made & 3) I sometimes feel that my opinion doesn’t count. There are other reasons to, but I won’t go into them.
I just hope Bush doesn’t touch or mess around with Social Security, so people like TheFrey, HDS & other working Americans can get the sam benefits that my parents & I do now; I won’t go into much detail, but doesn’t our President remember what happened to ENRON.Posters Unite,
Jhevz 🙄I’ve heard most of these comments made by Brits over this side of the pond. I guess it’s a global problem.
I remember speaking at a conference advocating the proliferation of the Internet in the late 90’s. I remember reporting that my doctors surgery had recently laid off two admin staff because they had an ISDN line to India where twice as many Indian peeps worked for a quarter of the wages.
Globalisation… Hmmm, it seems bad at the moment, but isn’t there anything good about it from our point of view? Are we all going to revolt, become luddites, or devolutionists? It seems that the biggest problems are in the places with the biggest spenders. It’s like western companies are shooting themselves in the head! The more they give away jobs abroad, the less peeps have to spend on their products.
Don’t need terrorism anymore, just give ’em a good deal on outsourceing! ‘Bomb them into the stonage!’ Ha! Never gonna happen….. ‘Outsource them into the darkage!‘ Hmmm…
You guys really make me laugh. Habib gets paid 4,000 dollars (not 35,000) for your 50,000 – 80,000 dollar tech position. I got worse news for you – he is probably better at it too…..
As long as you can export the work…..actually it is not exporting…..it is the global economy. You are just going to get used to a lower standard of living as the world evens out the wealth to the proles.
Such a smug attitude many Westerners have that they are the most intelligent and thus the most highly paid…..welcome to equal opportunity…..
As a Black Man – I spent 20 years in school only to find out North America would not employ me for anything but menial work; so I now laugh as you find out your “dream” job finally goes to someone with dark skin….. I drive a truck for a living…..safe for the next 20 years….. 😆
Wake up and smell the roses! You have to compete with the world on an equal footing….. How do you stack up? The same protectionism you speak about is no different than the discrimination I faced that prevented me from getting a nice job – Welcome to equality!
As I said the other night, I was watching Lou Dobbs on CNN, and one of the guest columnists he had was pretty interesting. He had this to say.
Cost reductions and other benefits provide a strong incentive to outsource jobs. A company that decides to move its production overseas cuts its costs in many ways, including the following:
Extremely low wage rates
The circumvention or avoidance of organized labor
No Social Security or Medicare benefit payments
No federal or state unemployment tax
No health benefits for workers
No child labor laws
No OSHA or EPA costs or restrictions
No worker retirement benefits or pension costs
Besides cutting costs, there are other benefits to exporting jobs, including the following:
Tax incentives provided by our government
Incentives from foreign governments
The creation of new international markets for the company’s products (which ultimately empowers the company to turn a deaf ear to this country’s problems and influence)
The continued benefits of our legal system and the freedoms that we provide
The net effect of all of this is lower costs, higher revenue, higher profits, higher stock prices, bonuses for management, and the creation of wealth for a subclass that benefits from low taxes at the expense of the rest of us. – Rory L. Terry, an associate professor of finance at Fort Hays State University
http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/11/commentary/dobbs/dobbs/index.htm
Basically his argument is that the business making the decision reaps the benefits with out paying the full cost. Not unlike chemical companies who use to think that washing stuff down stream was a cost effective way of getting rid of waste.
Fatguy wrote:You guys really make me laugh. Habib gets paid 4,000 dollars (not 35,000) for your 50,000 – 80,000 dollar tech position. I got worse news for you – he is probably better at it too…..
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that this is a generalized statement about American engineering quality, and NOT a personal attack. One shouldn’t make such generous assumptions like that.
Such a smug attitude many Westerners have that they are the most intelligent and thus the most highly paid…..welcome to equal opportunity…..
As a Black Man – I spent 20 years in school only to find out North America would not employ me for anything but menial work; so I now laugh as you find out your “dream” job finally goes to someone with dark skin….. [/quote
Again with wild assumptions. You imply that I (and/or other posters) resent that jobs are going to minorities, based on some sort of underlying racism. Which is inexcusible since I doubt you know much of anything about any of our backgrounds (both ethnicity and experiences).me wrote:I have no problem with importing people…
…Our country is built on hard working immigrants looking for a better life, and working hard to achieve it!My argument is that the labor is being sent abroad, and that the long term effects will reduce the education levels here in my HOME country. Like most people, I don’t want harm to come to my home. When someone comes here to work, they bring their experiences and knowledge with them to this country, adding to the collective knowledge and culture. America is the “melting pot of the world” because of the so many diverse cultures that immigrated and live here contributing their ways to the overall society.
Fatguy wrote:I drive a truck for a living…..safe for the next 20 years….. 😆
I heard that the typesetters said something like that back in the 50s. 😉
SadGeezer wrote:Are we all going to revolt, become luddites, or devolutionists? It seems that the biggest problems are in the places with the biggest spenders. It’s like western companies are shooting themselves in the head! The more they give away jobs abroad, the less peeps have to spend on their products.
Actually, any goverment has the power to set the ground rules it wants for business that operate within it borders. Unfortunately, we are currently have a party in place in the US that doesnot have the best interests of the majority of their citizens at heart. I don’t know what is going on in the UK on this matter, but as I said eariler, the Canadians I met last weekend also have reservations about their current goverment allowing simular programs.
As a Black Man – I spent 20 years in school only to find out North America would not employ me for anything but menial work; so I now laugh as you find out your “dream” job finally goes to someone with dark skin…..
Uh, my Hispanic husband’s job was replaced by another Hispanic person, so what the hell are you talking about? 🙄
Furthermore, my friend Meaza, who is from Ethiopia*, had two sisters who worked there who were not at all happy thet their jobs were being outsourced out of the country after all the work they did to get here. The tech from India was perhaps the most vocal about outsourcing his department to his home country.
(*This is a country in Africa.)
I think it’s very old-fashioned to insist that all tech jobs in the US belong to white males. Very few of the people Mr. Pet worked with and for were white males, actually. This is a big immigrant town.
Also, during a recession when people are out of work, the only business that is historically sure to boom in every case that of Ice-Cream . When people aren’t buying, they aren’t shipping. Truck drivers also get laid off and their wages get cut to match the overstock on available workers.
If your country starts outsourcing as much as ours, you may want to think about getting a little bell and becoming an ice cream man. 😉
Pet
Oh, don’t bother with him Pet. If we were discussing the creation of ice cream flavors to go in those push carts of yours Maurice would have still pulled that card.
Since there is out sourcing going to the Glenda’s in Scotland, the Ille’s in Romainia and Boris’ in Russia I don’t think it is a skin color thing. It has to do with business taking advantage of under utilized skills in areas where wages are depressed for whatever reason. If they can also find an area without those pesky labor laws, then so much the better.
Business is trying to bring wages and labor rights down to third world levels. If they can operate their factories and research in area of the world with low wages and no worker rights without encouring the wrath of their customers they are happy campers. If in the process they can erode or elimate those rights in the West then big bonus points!
However, I suspect some upheaval may be in the works since the persons currently being displaced are not longer just working stiffs in the factories but people that the Republican actually keep an eye on.
Fatguy wrote:Actually, I was only talking about off shore outsourcing; domestic employment is each nation’s concern.
Globalization affects us all, this was the topic of choice at an event I attended one week ago:
The globalization topic was actually a discussion the speaker (Consul General of Trinidad And Tobago – and also my cousin) had with the Vice President of Venezuela. Other officials and an ambassador were their and many of the discussions mirror what is being said here…..interesting to see other sides…..
Well Maurice, unless you rework this post on your site in a hurry, I did not see a whole lot on it to contribute to this particular post. You spent as much time telling us about the attendees, quality of the snacks and the steel drum as you did about the main topic.
Possibly more than two sentences that brush upon the topics of globalization and service orientation might be necessary, if this was to be a look at this convo from another countries view point.
Just thought I’d add this. Don’t usually read forwards, but someone insisted I check my trash (which is where anything with “FW” automatically goes).
I thought the Frey might get some use out of it.
*************************
RESUME
George W. Bush
The White House, USA
EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:
LAW ENFORCEMENT:
I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the
influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver’s
license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been “lost”
and is not available.
MILITARY:
I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a
drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the
Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.
COLLEGE:
I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was a
cheerleader.
PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:
* I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.* I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in 1975.
I bought an oil company, but couldn’t find any oil in Texas. The company
went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.* I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that
took land using taxpayer money.* With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil
industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.* ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:
* I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies,
making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my tenure,
Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.* I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions
in borrowed money.* I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American
history.* With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father’s
appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by
over 500,000 votes.ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:
* I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a
criminal record.* I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one
billion dollars per week.* I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S.
Treasury.* I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S.
history.* I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any
12-month period.* I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
* I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the
U.S. stock market.* In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs
and that trend continues every month.* I’m proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any
>administration in U.S. history. My “poorest millionaire,” Condoleeza
Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.* I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S.
President.* I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most
corporate campaign donations.* My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends,
Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in
U.S. history, Enron.* My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to
assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election
decision.* I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against
investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent
investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent
investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.* I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused
to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.* I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.
* I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
government contracts.* I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any
President in U.S. history.* I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy
in the history of the United States government.* I’ve broken more international treaties than any President in U.S.
history.* I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations
remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.* I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.
* I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. “prisoners of war”
detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.* I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election
inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).* I set the record for the fewest number of press conferences of any
President since the advent of television.* I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year
period.* After taking off the entire month of August 2001, I presided over the
worst security failure in U.S. history.* I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center
attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country
>in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.* I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to
simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people),
shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of
mankind.* I am t he first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked,
pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I
did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S.
citizens, and the world community.* I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in
duty benefits for active duty troops and their families-in wartime.* In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for
attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.* I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans
(71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and
security.* I am supporting development of a nuclear “Tactical Bunker Buster,” a
WMD.* I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden and
Saddam Hussein to justice.RECORDS AND REFERENCES:
* All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father’s
library, sealed and unavailable for public view.* All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
view.* All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-president,
attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and
unavailable for public review.PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004.
****************************
Discuss.
(Mr. Pet is calling him President Clark.)
Fun Things to do to the Bushy One – No matter how in the toilet things are I *do* try to find ways to amuse myself no matter how small.
Yesterday, I received a letter from the Busy campaign asking for donations. How sweet. I have never register as or voted republican, yet they want to include me. Oh, and they sent me a nice picture of his Bushness as a little pressy. All they wanted me to do was pop a nice little donation in the mail. They even sent me a postage paid envelope to do it in.
While this of course does not make up for the econ continuing to tank due to his total ineptness in domestic and foreign affairs, I did find a moment of bliss in taking the picture, writing “No body died when Clinton lied” on it, and popping it in that nice envelope of theirs. How sweet of them to provide me with these few moments of happiness and even pay for it.
I am off to sift todays mail for other republican fund raising requests. 😀
We make our own happiness everyday
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