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the other thread was too long so i had to restart here
Valdron
Aspiring SadGeezer
Member # 506
posted 24-03-2002 12:30 AM
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Thanks Cat, a few thoughts:
“Shooting black sheets from your body is a pretty impressive power.” But it may not have been an inherent shadow power, it may have been technological. Alternately, so what, anyone with a blackpak could do the same. Shooting bullets out of your navel might impress the locals, but you’re not going to be the new Pope.“10,000 years from Brigadoom.. who says that is literal?” I’ve considered that. I more than suspect that they just threw in those big round numbers because it sounded impressive. But then, Paul’s partial to epic scale, so it may have been deliberate.
It may not have been well thought out, it may not have been literal. But it’s there,
and it’s clearly stated, and two references are made, one to 6000 and one to 10,000. After kicking it around, I decided I had no choice but to accept the numbers for their face value.“Brunnen-G may have been killed by a Shadow possesed individual long before the forming of the Divine Order,” The Gigashadow, referring to the first individual he took over says “And I became the first Divine Shadow…”
“Thodin knew about the Brunnen-G presumably because some records still existed of the Insect Wars and the Brunnen-G’s part in them. The Brunnen-G would have spent some time interacting with humans in the light zone after the Wars, both before the migration and before the shield was erected.”
I’ll agree with that, Stan was well aware of the Insect Wars long after Kai’s death 2008 years before. I suspect that the Insect
Wars and Brunnen G were well known in legend.
It’s also reasonable to assume that the Brunnen G would have sent scouting parties all over the Light Universe looking for their new home, and followed with embassies, trading delegations, whatnot. So, in all likelihood, they’re fairly well known.But here’s a mystery. Kai knew about the Prophecy because the Time Prophet told him.
HDS knew about the prophecy because he ate Kai and visited the Time Prophet. But Kai never got the chance to talk much to anyone
outside, so far as we know. I don’t think HDS was the kind of guy to let something like that slip out after a few beers, not if he took it seriously. And the HDS did take it seriously, after the Prophecy, they never left the Cluster.So how does Thodin know about the Prophecy?
As far as I’m concerned, the Time Prophet must have blabbed after the fact. I can just see desperate generals going “How can we stop the Divine Order?” and getting the
whole song and dance. Must have been right depressing.Here’s a true story. Back in 2000, Brian Downey came out to Keycon, a Convention in Winnipeg as a Guest of Honour. Anyway, there was a question and answer panel, so
I thought I’d throw in a geekboy question.“Did Thodin and Stan have any history, because they seemed to know each other personally, rather than simply by reputation in IWHS”
Brian said without hesitation, “Thodin was the courier that Stan was deputy backup for. Stan’s giving out the codes almost wrecked Thodin’s career, guilt by association.”
Wow, cool or what? Then, in his next breath
he said “You realize, I just made that up.”The truth of it is that we can’t be sure just how much of it they thought through, or what parts. Some of this stuff they’d had in mind as early as 1993. Some of it they just pulled out of their butts on the day of shooting. Some of it, heck, some of it, they just don’t have a clue, and if you ask, you get wild guesses or sudden inspiration.
So, I think we’ve taken this debate as far as it can go. Nothing left for you to do, Sgt. Draino, but go ahead and ask Lex G when he shows up in chat. Maybe he’s got the
answer and its all been worked out. Or maybe he’ll pull a monkey out of his butt and give you an answer that isn’t a fraction as carefully thought out as we’ve been doing. But it’ll be an answer.Kai
Aspiring SadGeezer
Member # 482
posted 24-03-2002 10:23 AM
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Time to knock a few more dents
1. It was his shaddow (kai refers to by name)
2. He has the HDS memory sucking powers
3. He was taken to a biovisir that uses protoblood, threfore gigashaddow so was the insect——————–
I talk to myself…….
…..Its the only way I can have an intelligent conversation!
[ 25-03-2002: Message edited by: FX ]
Kai wrote:
quote:
Hate to put a dampener on the lively dabate but here is why the insect wars must have been in BOTH universes.
The giga-shaddow can not cross borders as you recall when it did it collapsed the portal!
Actually, that would be a reason why the Wars could only take place in the Light Universe.
But the Giga Shadow collapsed the Fractal Core because it was simply to big to fit through it. My theory is, the Giga Shadow is much larger than a normal Insect. It’s been slowing growing in size and strength for many thousands of years. The average Insect during the Insect Wars may have been able to fit through the Fractal Core. In fact, I believe the Insects created the Fractal Core.
Cat wrote:
quote
10,000 years from Brigadoom.. who says that is literal? I’d think it more like a couple of thousand.. who would keep count that long, especially as they could barely remember their names (compare with Matthew 18 where Peter asks Jesus how if you should forgive a man 7 times, and Jesus says no, 70 times 7. It doesn’t mean 490 literally)
That is a good point, and I had wondered about that. Let’s look at the two individual quotes. First, from “Dull, Dull, Dull”:
“What kind of a life is that, 10,000 years with her?”
From that context, it’s possible the New Born singing the line (to Brunnen-G Elder Lett) is simply pointing out that 10,000 years with the geezer’s wife would suck. That amount of time might not have already passed, it might just be an example of a bad potential outcome of immortality.
From “Too Much To Remember”:
“It’s a funny thing how time flies, 6,000 years go by so fast.”
This line, sung by Groo, (the geezer’s wife), seems to rather concretely state a literal passage of time. So, I think Brunnis 2 is at least 6,000 years old. But the 10,000 year figure is somewhat softer.
quote
Marty Simon voiced brain 14, he was the voice that calls out “The Prophecy is upon us!” on the journey to the Lexx.
All the brains know about the prophecy, as when HDS talks of commanding the Lexx himself, they all cry out, “BUT THE PROPHECY!”
They prolly just told each other about it, but may not know the specific wording (which is why they look into the Dunsworth DP).
quote
The shield around Brunnis 2 was impenetrable, from both directions. The Brunnen-G shut themselves off from the universe, they didn’t want to leave the planet, no longer wanted to see what was going on outside and sure as heck didn’t want anyone to come in, there was no code.
That is possible. The wording of the first song certainly suggests the shield cannot be penetrated from either side. That again leaves us with the question of how HDS killed Brunnen-G who lived on Brunnis. Of course, even if the shield is impassable from either side, we don’t know when the weak points first appeared, or if any other Brunnen-G knew about them.
And it still seems unlikely to me that the Brunnen-G would essentually trap themselves on their own planet. As a race that develops a great fear of death, trapping themselves so that they CANNOT leave their planet seems contrary to their nature. What about natural disasters? You’d think they’d leave themselves some kind of means of escape.
quote
Brunnen-G may have been killed by a Shadow possesed individual long before the forming of the Divine Order, assuming that the events shown at the beginning of Mantrid occured before the erection of the shield.
That is also possible. It’s something we can only guess at, at this point.
quote
Thodin knew about the Brunnen-G presumably because some records still existed of the Insect Wars and the Brunnen-G’s part in them.
But Thodin also knew about the Prophecy, which was originally known only by the Time Prophet, Kai, the dead on Brunnis 2, and His Shadow. You’d think HDS would keep a lid on that info getting out anywhere else, if he could help it.
Valdron wrote:
quote
“Shooting black sheets from your body is a pretty impressive power.” But it may not have been an inherent shadow power, it may have been technological. Alternately, so what, anyone with a blackpak could do the same. Shooting bullets out of your navel might impress the locals, but you’re not going to be the new Pope.
Aw, come on. There’s no reason to believe it wasn’t an inherent power. Besides which, inherent or not, what matters is that it was god-like (which it was). I can “walk on water” using water skis and not impress anybody. But do it Jesus-style, I might drop some jaws.
quote
HDS did not manifest ‘godlike’ powers, so far as I know, there was effective immortality, possibly longevity of bodies, the memory stealing thing, and a few shadow tricks like walking around without a brain.
HDS was clearly a god-figure in the religion of the Divine Order:
1. Thodin calls it a “false religion.”
2. The Order is run by “Clerics,” a religious term.
3. Clerics work in “temples,” again religious.
4. Enemies are called “Heretics,” a religious term.
5. Citizens are refered to as “His Shadows loyal followers,” indicating a religion.
6. Citizens use “I worship His Shadow” as a greeting, and “May His Shadow fall upon you” as a parting comment.
7. Definition of “Divine”: “Being or having the nature of a deity. Godlike.” Ergo, “His Godlike Shadow.”quote:
If HDS had nothing but time, I could see them playing a careful game, expanding gradually, forever consolidating, bursts and consolidation.
In short, in my view, its entirely possible that the Divine Order existed in some form before the migration to Brunnis 2.
I will concede it is possible, if you will concede the opposite is also possible.
We just don’t know.quote
790’s statement on first reading seems to suggest a recent wave of expansion 2000 years before. But it doesn’t say it was the first such wave, although that inference might be drawn. Nor does it give any background on the prior development. It may be consistent with 790 to say that the expansion referred to was only the latest in a series of them over a dozen millenia.
790:
“When His Divine Shadow became powerful, and started to take over the Light Universe, one of the first planets he attacked was Brunnis 2, the Brunnen-G planet.”
“… and started to take over the Light Universe…” This indicates no prior periods of expansion. Otherwise, it would be said he “started” back then, and not during Kai’s time. He wouldn’t “start” to take over the universe over a period of 6,000-10,000 years. The only potential thing that may have come before, is that “His Shadow became powerful.” This could mean just about anything, I suppose, EXCEPT that he’d already started to take over the Light Universe.
790 actually insinuates that becoming powerful and starting the takeover happened at the same time.quote
Alternately, 790 might be considered an unreliable narrator. Certainly, he is a biased and unreliable narrator injecting his personal views and prejudices into other aspects of 790.
Not in this instance, I think, as 790 and the Lexx were in some sort of spacial distortion that made them extra-lucid, and gave them both greater insights into what the history of the situation was.
quote:
Essentially, Sgt. it seems to me that your
theory calls for disregarding at least some statements. It’s tempting to do so. But I think that a theory which most succesfully incorporates the most statements wins out.
I’m not trying to “win out,” I’m simply trying to get to the bottom of the situation, so I can finish my Insect Wars script and send it in.
This is a fun discussion, but after a point, we’re not going to get any further until we can interview some Beans.quote
The Gigashadow, referring to the first individual he took over says “And I became the first Divine Shadow…”
Actually, he says:
“I became His Divine Shadow, the most powerful ruler in the two universes.”
It is implied that that miner was the first person known as HDS, but it is again impossible to be sure without the Beans.
I thought that statement about “the most powerful ruler in the two universes” was interesting. It implies knowledge of the Dark Zone. Not sure what to make of it, other than its similiarity to Lexx’s line:
“I am His Divine Shadow. I am the most powerful ruler in the two universes. I was born on the Cluster, which is ruled… by ME.”
quote:
I’ll agree with that, Stan was well aware of the Insect Wars long after Kai’s death 2008 years before. I suspect that the Insect
Wars and Brunnen G were well known in legend.
It’s also reasonable to assume that the Brunnen G would have sent scouting parties all over the Light Universe looking for their new home, and followed with embassies, trading delegations, whatnot. So, in all likelihood, they’re fairly well known.
The Insect Wars had “faded into a hazy past” by the time the Brunnen-G had permanently moved into the Light Universe, 8,000+ years before Stan’s time. Now, I do believe that, at some point, the Brunnen-G and the Prophecy did become legends specifically with the Ostral-B (which is where Stan is from), but I think the majority of the universe had forgotten they existed, including His Shadow. Otherwise, Brunnis 2 would have been THE first planet destroyed, as HDS would view the people who led humanity to victory before, as his greatest threat.
Then again, we run into the Super Nova problem: HDS has already killed people who lived on Brunnis. Ergo, you’d think he would already know about Brunnis 2. Even if they hadn’t founded Brunnis 2 yet, one would think he’d at least know of their plans.
quote:
HDS knew about the prophecy because he ate Kai and visited the Time Prophet. But Kai never got the chance to talk much to anyone
outside, so far as we know. I don’t think HDS was the kind of guy to let something like that slip out after a few beers, not if he took it seriously. And the HDS did take it seriously, after the Prophecy, they never left the Cluster.So how does Thodin know about the Prophecy?
As far as I’m concerned, the Time Prophet must have blabbed after the fact.
There’s another interesting topic. I simply can’t imagine His Divine Shadow allowing the Time Prophet to remain where she was, providing potentially valuable information to his enemies. At the very least, she would be imprisoned, and heavily guarded so only His Shadow would have access. You’d think he’d have had her cleansed. Of course, Vlad tells us that she killed the Time Prophet. And then there is the running theory that Vlad IS the Time Prophet (which I like).
I think the most likely occurence is that, once HDS was done with his visit to the Time Prophet, his bio-scholars transformed her into Vlad; HDS’s ultimate weapon against the prophecy. After all, HDS knew of the prophecy before he made Kai into an assassin. He could have simply obliterated Kai, but he wanted “punishment beyond death.” Vlad was HDS’s insurance policy that Kai would not come back to bite him in the arse.
I am more and more convinced that the Ostral-B visited Brunnis. They have clear knowledge of the Fractal Core. It was obviously an important piece of information to them, encoded and transported by their couriers. What do you guys think they might have used it for?
quote
The truth of it is that we can’t be sure just how much of it they thought through, or what parts. Some of this stuff they’d had in mind as early as 1993. Some of it they just pulled out of their butts on the day of shooting. Some of it, heck, some of it, they just don’t have a clue, and if you ask, you get wild guesses or sudden inspiration.
Oh, absolutely correct. I’ve seen several reviews of the first four movies, which expressed the opinion that the Beans were making it up as they went along. And they probably did. But I still enjoy trying to shape the whole thing into a more concrete history, protecting our universe from chaos and disorder.
And it further strikes me that there is SO much more to potentially explore, story-wise, with the Insect Wars, the Brunnen-G, and the Heretics’ struggle against the Divine Order. Now THAT’S a spin-off I’d like to see, which is why I keep hoping for more hints that time has ended, and begun again.
quote:
So, I think we’ve taken this debate as far as it can go. Nothing left for you to do, Sgt. Draino, but go ahead and ask Lex G when he shows up in chat. Maybe he’s got the
answer and its all been worked out. Or maybe he’ll pull a monkey out of his butt and give you an answer that isn’t a fraction as carefully thought out as we’ve been doing. But it’ll be an answer.
Looking forward to that day, believe you me.
quote:
Originally posted by sgtdraino:
But the Giga Shadow collapsed the Fractal Core because it was simply to big to fit through it. My theory is, the Giga Shadow is much larger than a normal Insect. It’s been slowing growing in size and strength for many thousands of years. The average Insect during the Insect Wars may have been able to fit through the Fractal Core. In fact, I believe the Insects created the Fractal Core.
I believe the average insect was smaller than the gigashadow, indeed it looked a heck of a lot smaller than half a planet when burrowing into the cluster in Mantrid and had been eating a lot of meaty stuff over the years. But I don’t think the insects ever travelled to the Dark Zone, or even knew about the fractal core, let alone created it (fractal cores being natural phenomonon). The appearance of the Brunnen-G in the Light Zone took the insects completely by surprise.
quote:
Marty Simon voiced brain 14, he was the voice that calls out “The Prophecy is upon us!” on the journey to the Lexx.
All the brains know about the prophecy, as when HDS talks of commanding the Lexx himself, they all cry out, “BUT THE PROPHECY!”
I was merely trying to sort out the confusion as to which brain was which and what Marty’s role was etc.
quote
And it still seems unlikely to me that the Brunnen-G would essentually trap themselves on their own planet. As a race that develops a great fear of death, trapping themselves so that they CANNOT leave their planet seems contrary to their nature. What about natural disasters? You’d think they’d leave themselves some kind of means of escape.
In that case you simply switch the thing off entirely. No need for secret doors and codes etc.
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Cat ]
quote:
Valdron wrote:
Thanks Cat, a few thoughts:
“Shooting black sheets from your body is a pretty impressive power.” But it may not have been an inherent shadow power, it may have been technological. Alternately, so what, anyone with a blackpak could do the same. Shooting bullets out of your navel might impress the locals, but you’re not going to be the new Pope.
I don’t think so, didn’t the Gigashadow use a similar attack on the Lexx (or am I imaging that?)
PS, I joined this discussion as it only seemed right, having started the original light/dark zone argument with Valdron on the 2nd Lexx.com Bored.
A couple of comments about Vlad. Anna Cameron’s cameo notwithstanding, Vlad is not the Time Prophet and the Time Prophet is not Vlad.
In her first appearance, Vlad says that she found, interrogated and killed the time prophet. End of story.
As to the relationship between Vlad and
Kai. Vlad came first. Alex Busby mentioned that she was 8000 years old. Minna Aaltonen said that Vlad was much older than Kai, by thousands of years.Just a few other passing thoughts:
790 is *definitely* the epitome of an unreliable narrator in Rated: LEXX. His views and perceptions are entirely biased and he makes no bones about that. Consider his characterization of Stanley Tweedle.
Second, I’m not sure there’s any evidence to suggest that the Ostral B visited Brunnis or Brunnis 2. The pathway to the Dark Zone was described as path to a realm inaccessible to his shadow. A fallback position for the heretics, or an emergency escape hatch. I don’t know that the Ostral B saw the Brunnen G as anything more than historical figures.
quote:
Originally posted by Valdron:
As to the relationship between Vlad and
Kai. Vlad came first. Alex Busby mentioned that she was 8000 years old. Minna Aaltonen said that Vlad was much older than Kai, by thousands of years.
That would place a limit on how recently the Divine Order could have been founded. It would mean that it had been around (and producing decarbonized assassins) for about 2 milliennia (at the very least) before it destroyed Brunnis-2. So that event couldn’t have been one of the first actions of the group (as was implied in one of the “Rated Lexx” segments).
Vlad was specifically created as a Divine Executioner to destroy Divine Assassins.
This suggests that the Divine Order
was much older than even Vlad.However, Vlad’s maximum apparent age of 8,000 years is still within the time frame
of the visitor to the Time Prophet in Supernova, which with adjustments, works out to be approximately 9400 years.It’s still a puzzler.
Oh goody, more stuff!
Cat wrote:
quote
But I don’t think the insects ever travelled to the Dark Zone, or even knew about the fractal core, let alone created it (fractal cores being natural phenomonon).
Are they? At any rate, even if they are, it doesn’t mean this one is.
Here’s an interesting point for you, though: In Super Nova, in the Memory Catacombs, we see the memory of Kraito being awarded the Medal of Ultimate Honor, for defeating the Insects at the Battle of Virian. The Brunnen-G presenter says, “All Brunnen-G, all human races, are forever in your debt.”
Since the Brunnen-G live in the Dark Zone, but believe that all human races (in both zones, apparently) are in Kraito’s debt for defeating the Insects, then the Insects must have posed some sort of threat to both universes.
quote
In that case you simply switch the thing (the shield) off entirely. No need for secret doors and codes etc.
I don’t think the shield could be easily switched off. Otherwise, the Brunnen-G on Brunnis II would have turned it off when they decided they all wanted to die. But we are told the shield is destroyed by the Divine Order.
quote
I don’t think so, didn’t the Gigashadow use a similar (black sheet) attack on the Lexx (or am I imaging that?)
‘Fraid you’re imagining it. The Giga Shadow never “fired” anything. It just used that extending appendage to harpoon the Lexx.
But I think the Insects must have possessed some sort of ranged weapon to pose any real threat to the two universes, and I think HDS’s ability to fire “blacksheets” directly out of his body was a manifestation of that weapon.
On a side note, here’s an interesting exchange from The End of the Universe:
Xev: Kai, how did your Brunnen-G ancestors defeat the Insects?
Kai: The Brunnen-G had fewer resources but much greater resourcefulness. The Insects were intelligent but methodical… and therefore, ultimately predictable. That was their weakness.
Valdron wrote:
quote:
A couple of comments about Vlad. Anna Cameron’s cameo notwithstanding, Vlad is not the Time Prophet and the Time Prophet is not Vlad.
In her first appearance, Vlad says that she found, interrogated and killed the time prophet. End of story.
Like Cat said, Vlad could have been lying. Or that could have even been what Vlad was programmed to believe.
quote:
As to the relationship between Vlad and
Kai. Vlad came first. Alex Busby mentioned that she was 8000 years old. Minna Aaltonen said that Vlad was much older than Kai, by thousands of years.
That would indeed indicate that, at the time those statements were made, the Anna Cameron factor was a coincidence. But the literary possibility remains open, and I think it’s an interesting one. The Beans can always change their minds about things as the series progresses, as I’m sure they have done many times in the past.
btw, who is Alex Busby again?
quote
790 is *definitely* the epitome of an unreliable narrator in Rated: LEXX. His views and perceptions are entirely biased and he makes no bones about that. Consider his characterization of Stanley Tweedle.
His characterization of Tweedle is an opinion open to interpretation. His statements about the Divine Order and their attack on Brunnis 2 are either facts or lies, with little room for interpretation. And 790 would have no reason to lie about such historical events.
quote
Second, I’m not sure there’s any evidence to suggest that the Ostral B visited Brunnis or Brunnis 2.
We know that they are familiar with the Brunnen-G, and we know they visited the Dark Zone.
quote
The pathway to the Dark Zone was described as path to a realm inaccessible to his shadow. A fallback position for the heretics, or an emergency escape hatch.
In order for the Ostrol-B to know it was a realm innaccessible to His Shadow, they would have had, to some degree or other, to have explored it. Otherwise, how do they know the Fractal Core goes anywhere at all?
Technically speaking, it’s even possible that the people who lived on Brunnis that HDS killed, were Ostrol-B and not Brunnen-G! They could have set up a temporary colony to explore the planet. The Predecessors do not outright say the victims were Brunnen-G, they just say they lived on Brunnis.
quote:
Vlad was specifically created as a Divine Executioner to destroy Divine Assassins.
This suggests that the Divine Order
was much older than even Vlad.
Yeah, but how much older is “much older?” 100 years ain’t long when you’re looking at millenia, but HDS might have been able to develope the assassin/executioner tech in that timeframe.
quote:
However, Vlad’s maximum apparent age of 8,000 years is still within the time frame
of the visitor to the Time Prophet in Supernova, which with adjustments, works out to be approximately 9400 years.
I’m not happy taking the 8,000 year figure for granted, unless it was referenced on the show, or came directly from a Bean. Nor am I quite prepared to concede that Vlad is older than Kai.
quote
That is possible. The wording of the first song certainly suggests the shield cannot be penetrated from either side. That again leaves us with the question of how HDS killed Brunnen-G who lived on Brunnis. Of course, even if the shield is impassable from either side, we don’t know when the weak points first appeared, or if any other Brunnen-G knew about them.
Kai broke/weakened a part of the shield when he left to see the time prophet.
quote:
Originally posted by Valdron:
A couple of comments about Vlad. Anna Cameron’s cameo notwithstanding, Vlad is not the Time Prophet and the Time Prophet is not Vlad.In her first appearance, Vlad says that she found, interrogated and killed the time prophet. End of story.
THey said much the same thing about Vader and Anakin.
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