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Logan wrote:
Would be nice to start a thread devoted to exploring which qualities appeal to us individually cross ‘genre’, and what turns us off. I find that the themes that appeal to me tends to transcend genre. Some stuff appeals to my personality, and other fiction makes me cringe. Part of that is my ideological bias. I like tales of alienation, and works that reflect, and/or explore, my social and political concerns, for instance…
Excellent idea Logan! So here goes..
yeah alienation is a thread close to my heart and so to start out a long long way from scifi yet so close to the heart of the matter I mention Quentin Crisps ‘The Naked Civil Servant’. I mean being outwardy gay and genderbendering in 30’s Britain! Although it may seem light years away from scifi Crisp occupies the same space as Frankensteins Creature, Roy Batty, and in a more direct descent Bowie’s Thomas Jerome Newton in The Man who fell to Earth. The gay conection continues (of course) through a lot of Gore Vidal – Myra – and the Brilliant ‘Messiah’ (more of which later) through to Ken MacKellens ‘Magneto’ in Xmen – Indeed writers like Vidal seem to have fallen into a welcoming almost natural niche within scifi almost as ‘honarary positions’ – i.e. Vidals cameo role in the excellent ‘Gatacca’ – a film in which both alienation and homoerotic threads run not too far from the surface.
Ok thats enough for starters ..I’m off to paint Lyekka (my sailing boat) and dig deep in the old grey matter.
Any thoughts anyone?
The Man Who Fell to Earth is one of my favourite films of alienation. Very sad.
I don’t read gay text per se in that film, but there are indeed some Crisp/Newton alienation parallels — both are fish out of water, and abused by society. The sexually ambiguous alien Newton (with glam rock Ziggy, the bisexual Bowie was used to playing androgynous) has a partner and kids, but he’s not specifically identified as male or female. I treat him as akin to a male hetero-sapien, but I don’t know quite how their reproduction works (gooey hands or something perhaps). He does choose male prosthetics for his time on Earth. But I digress… I suppose that gender classifications are debatable for both since gender also has a social/cultural element.
One difference between Crisp’s and Newton’s cases is that Crisp was flamboyantly out of the closet, whereas Newton was reluctant to reveal his true nature. That he did led to tragedy.
Have you seen Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence?
One can find gay text and subtext in so much fiction… Camp is fun, gay subculture is seemingly vibrant, and having homosexual characters makes for lively drama (as well as all the gay comedy/jokes out there)… And, I think, as a plot device it’s worked as an easy reference point to communicate alienation/marginalisation to the straight masses.
I suspect that most films that you can find in a mainstream cinema with gay subtext are still made for straight audiences by mostly straight people…. I wonder how that skews most people’s perceptions of what it means to be gay? Most people can relate to some kind of feelings of marginalisation, so you don’t have to be gay to have stories involving alienation due to sexual orientation resonate with you.
I saw the Naked Civil Servant TV series many years ago — excellent. Interestingly, Crisp who had been marginalised, persecuted, and humiliated by the ‘establishment’ for so many years became a mainstream celebrity after the show — he became establishment one could say. Then came another big show which was critically praised, based on a book, with queerness as a central element… Brideshead Revisited.
John Hurt (from the Naked Civil Servant show) was in a wonderful and funny, I thought, film playing a character who falls in love with a teen idol called Love and Death on Long Island. It has Jason Priestly (B.H. 90210) and Bruce Fillmore who played Gibble in the Lexx episode Wake the Dead (he hated the film).
Crisp was a very witty fellow; very Oscar Wildeish in his quips.
I’m interested in many works that deal with systemic inequality/ cruelty, prejudice, and struggles to be individual.
Logan wrote:
I’m interested in many works that deal with systemic inequality/ cruelty, prejudice, and struggles to be individual.
Struggles to be individual I think can be associated with alienation/marginalization since to be an individual is to recognize what makes one different form the surrounding community which then in intensifying degrees can lead to marginalization and then alienation.
I find myself drawn to the beginning of this process, individuation and self-realization….like the replicants in Bladerunner the movie – or Horselover Fat in Phil’s(Philip K. Dick) book Valis, or the main character in the movie Waking Life and or Major Motoko Kusinagi in the anime movie Ghost in the Shell.
GITS even uses a quote from the bible to illustrate the point, “Now I see through a glass darkly/then we shall see face to face” Corinthians I, 13:11
And of course, Phil’s Scanner Darkly and Bergman’s Through a Glass Darkly deal with similar themes. Self realization and the possible madness if the realization is too much for the individual to bear…
ya know, light carefree kind of concerns 😉
Logan wrote:Have you seen Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence?
I have a long time ago. But I remember thinking at the time how brilliantly close Bowie was to the personality of another real life Lawrence – T E Lawrence (i.e. Of Arabia). So much so that I thought he could have done justice to the role far better than Peter O’Toole ever did.
T E Lawrence was a fascinating personality His account of himself in ‘Seven Pillars of Wisdom’ describing his taking stock of himself on his 30th birthday is a truly extraordinary piece of writing…” I was not modest, but ashamed of my awkwardness, of my physical envelope, and of my solitary unlikeness which made me no companion, but an acqquaintance, complete, angular, uncomfortable, as a crystal”…(Chapter CIII).
Lawrence was famous for his love of speed and fast motorcycles , indeed he died after crashing his. ..” In speed we hurl ourselves beyond the body” he had written.. quite ironic since he did just that. Lawrence hated being human.
Sidhecafe! the replicants…yes and I always felt for Rachael….her reaction to learning she’s a replicant is one of the most beautiful and moving parts of the film. Her reaction – to cry and breakdown – I always thought so movingly defines her as human (perhaps ” more human than human?”) certainly more human than Tyrell.
Let me get back to you on ‘Ghost In the Shell’ – excellent movie!
mmmm good posts guys!Sidhecafe wrote:Struggles to be individual I think can be associated with alienation/marginalization since to be an individual is to recognize what makes one different form the surrounding community which then in intensifying degrees can lead to marginalization and then alienation.
Yes I think you’re right. It’s a potentially obvious process and outcome! Unless one learns to accept oneself fully during the process then the act of ‘becoming’ ultimately leads, not only to a sense of difference, but possibly alienation. If one does not learn to love oneself as part of the process of individuation – perhaps love is too strong a word, tolerate maybe! – then trouble lies in store because the sense of ‘self’, if fragile will be knocked about by self doubt. One must allow one’s self to be less than perfect.
This is what happened with T E Lawrence (see my last post) who ends his chapter on himself with the cryptic sentence ” Indeed, the truth was I did not like the ‘myself’ I could see and hear.” He spent the rest of his life hating himself because he had not lived up to the standards he had set himself. (OK there are other psychological factors – like family origins and his illigitimacy – at work here but his sense of his betraying the arabic peoples whose fight for freedom he belived in so much ultimately led to his breakdown).
There is of course a connection in this thread with religion, which used to take care of these matters. We seem to be heading into the ‘Mind / /Body problem’: and what I ask myself is whether ones sense of self has an inate, or immanent, facet – a soul – mmm
I’ll think more on this!
Excellent posts! Now I have something sensible to think about for today! And I will get back to you on GITS!
I’m thinking more along the lines too of Roy Batty (Bladerunner) and Kusinagi (GITS) trying to define themselves for themselves by their difference – i.e. they are both not strictly “human” and they both follow this to the ultimate question not only “what justifies my existence then?” and “where/how do I fit in because of my perceived condition?”
And yes definitely that can lead to belief systems and theories religion and philosophy have striven to provide in answer…
which I think is also one of the functions of Art – in this case fiction and science fiction to provoke and engage on these subjects and themes.
Just seen ‘Ghost in the Shell’. Brilliant – I forgot just how brilliant!
I liked Kusinagi’s statement that we are continually changing beings, that while we think of ourselves as solid and fixed we are not. This is a kind of Zen perception of being – the harder we look for ourselves the more fleeting self becomes – a receding desert mirage always one step ahead!.
Yet something persits – we perceive ourselves as a continuum – perhaps this is a sense of soul?
Phil Dick’s attitude towards the replicants in Do Androids dream..is different to the portrayal of them in Blade Runner. In Do Androids Dream.. Dick conjures the replicants as cold ‘machines’ the replicants in BR are far from this. we intervene in the story just as they cross an ontological threshold.
We must be careful: for although the replicants are not human in the accepted sense, certainly with Rachael, mabe a little less with Roy Batty, one gets the feeling that it becomes meaningless to define what is human when such a definition is based in part upon origins. Particularly when it becomes harder and harder to test for the real thing …Deckard “…and if the machine doesn’t work?”…
It’s been years since i read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep it was very religious/philosophical too as I remember.
Kusinagi is a fascinating character- her intrepretation of her surrounding and the events leading up to her taking evolution (as it were) into her own hands is very intriguing, it’s definitely one of my favorite movies of all time, I like to listen to the soundtrack alot too.
And I think Dekkard is close to Kusinagi as well with his questioning of the machine test – what if Dekkard himnself is a replicant? That’s always been speculated on, but what’s really important is that he questions it himself- anyone could be a manfactured machine- but in the book his replicant animals are as precious to him as if they were born pets- or really that his need for born animals makes them important…..
hmm…need to read that book again at some point…
Sidhecafe..hi
There are many strands for and against Deckard being a replicant: the unicorn ‘dream’ sequence and Gaffs silver paper unicorn left in Deckards apartment would indicate that Gaff knew Deckards true origins – had read his file – along with his statement “…you’ve done a mans job sir”. Then again Deckard seems to be no match for either, Zhora or Leon both of whom appear physically stronger than he is. Roy Batty seems to be not only stronger but more ‘cunning’. (I think I read that Ridley Scott always wanted Deckards status to be open to question – since he is our ‘eyes’ into the action of the film it should leave our own status open too). Anyway…
What seems to unite Roy and Deckard and indeed Rachael is their compassion – Roy for Deckard (although ultimately Roy I believe learns to love all life), Deckard for Rachael, and I think Rachael really does care for Deckard.
In away for me it doesn’t matter what Deckards origins are. Deckard, Roy and Rachael, are all killers – Deckard by profession (although he clearly has doubts about his profession). Roy out of the need too live (although he murders Eldon Tyrell needlessly one suspects that Tyrell would not have treated Roy any better. Roy however seems worried by his actions or at least this is the impression one gets as he descends in the elevator (‘the fall’ from heaven …the Milton ‘Paradise Lost’ connection). Rachael kills Leon to save Deckards life, because, I think she loves him.
All these killings are complex in terms of the motivations behind them. However: through the course of events in the film Deckard Roy and Rachael all learn remorse. Roy and Rachael attain an empathy for other living beings which they did not have because they are replicants and Deckard either: asuming he is a replicant attains this empathy too or; assuming he is human, regains what he had previously lost – Deckard doesn’t only feel pity for Rachael he loves her and he deliberately doesn’t look at her file – doesn’t want to know her longevity and incept dates.
Regardless of their origins these characters all ‘grow’ as human beings. Roy, Rachael and Rick Deckard all undergo a process of ‘becoming’.
I do agree with you about the music for ‘Ghost in the Shell’ it is very haunting I still have it in my head two days after watching the film…and like you I am very drawn to Kusinagi one feels for her. That’s the good thing about a lot of scifi there are good female characters, characters who break stereotypical female moulds. In fact this seems to happen more in scifi than in any other genre.
Having said that and bearing in mind that this thread is supposed to be about cross genre influences a long time favourite has been the character of Janne La Pucelle – Joan of Arc – more on her later!
Can’t blame us for getting carried away with Bladerunner and GITS really now, anyone??? 😉
Compassion can be made a point of “humanity” but I don’t really think so- other mammals exhibit compassion as well. Whales and dolphins for instance….
So cross-genre we like that individuation process – that questioning of self…preferrably with some haunting soundtrack.
Another cross genre theme I’m very drawn too is facing “otherness”. I think Octavia Butler delt with it particularly well in the short story Bloodseed (think that was the name of it) but also cross-genre (time travel/ historical way) in the novel Kindred.
And that’s across several genres from Beat generation poetry (who are we? who are they?) to scifi (aliens), to westerns and soap operas i.e. Judd Nelson playing a vampire on Guiding Light!
So that’s another theme confrontations with Otherness.
Otherness – now there’s a major theme: Good point you make is that humans response to otherness usually is confrontation:I guess there are those that embrace otherness and find it intriguing, a source of inspiration, and wonder, and, those that fear it finding it a threat. Needless to point out the fear usally ends up in nasty regimes like the Third Reich and our present (UK) Governments attitude of military aggression – and that’s just towards other humans!
Can’t do much typing today – savaged my righthand index finger – now glued and stitched back together by our local A & E bless ’em,
Back soon
Tanith Lee has a great short story in her collection, Red As Blood or Tales from the Sisters Grimmer it’s the last story about a future earth – a reworking of the “Beauty and the Beast” story but in this version, Beauty is sent to live with a member of a superior alien race.
It contrasts very well with Cocteau’s film version – fairy tale to scifi. But the same theme, a collision with The Other – different, frightening, with mysterious powers…and Beauty has to overcome her own fear to see passed the difference to the individual. To embrace difference/diversity.
I remember as a child at school one day some gypsy kids came and were baited by the others kids mercilessly. I knew this was wrong but never had the guts to raise above it – hell I was only 11 years old and was desparate to fit in myself, to stand up for these kids would have meant exposing myself – well thats what it felt like – and I didn’t have the guts. They stopped coming soon after though. This was my first brush with the mindlessness that humans often present in the face of someone who is different. It’s never left me though….
That’s a very powerful memory/experience which does illistrate this point exactly.
We have to make ourselves vulnerable to scrutiny by “The Other” in order to open ourselves to truly seeing and accepting.
Like confronting racial assumptions – I had that experince growing up in an almost completely white town and then at college rooming with a Mexican American woman. I had to truly examine the assumptions I had grown up with- including the assumption that I wasn’t a rascist- to truly learn to see people past the boundaries of difference. To take theory and put it into practice.
It was painful at times, but important.I am always moved by the bit in Frankenstein where the creature befriends and helps the old blind man from the cottage. This is the only time in the book (film – De Niro as the Creature) the creature is accepted by humanity because in this scenario his visual appearence is unimportant. Oh the frustration and heartbreak when the old mans family return!
Frankenstein is a brilliant multifaceted story, at last it is beginning to shake off it’s Hammer Horror debasement – so much of the book is from the Creatures perspective and this rarely comes out in the film adaptations.
I think I’ve mentioned this in an old post but, the DeNiro creature seems very Roy Batty-ish and the scene where Victor Frankenstein confronts him in the Glacier is very Blade Runner. This may be because both Frankenstein and BR are drawn from the imagery of Miltons ‘Paradise Lost’, but….I think there’s definate Blade Runner-ish retrofitting of the Frankenstein story..which is a nice twist..
It’s all back to Bladerunner, isn’t it??? 😉
I agree with you about DeNiro’s Frankenstein being Roy Batty-ish.
I always thought it had a bit of Faust in it.
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