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We all know that Fire and Water is really Hell and Heaven. But do we really understand how its works. Those who are good people go to Water, the bad go to Fire. But what about those gray areas? People like Stan who went to the beach first. Or Fifi and the Girltown “girls” who seemed to be on the wrong planet? I plan to explore in the next few paragraphs what’s going on, on these two strange planets.
Water was great. There was a city for all sorts of fun stuff. There was Gametown where people played games all day, took coed showers, and ate good food. Boomtoown was just one great big orgy, so I needn’t say anything more about that place. Then there’s Garden. Garden isn’t such great place in my opinion. All the people did there was tend to the plants. Of course Garden is a nice place to visit. We are told that this place is Heaven. Some people think that Water isn’t heaven but more of luxurious Hell, since the people there only live for the moment and concentrate on the pass-time or their realms. I don’t share this opinion. Think back to preschool; in preschool there was playtime. You could play house, construction area, hospital or whatever. When playing house, you don’t think about the real life aspects of running a home, instead you think about cooking food, answering the phone, eating meals, etc. Thoughts about making money to buy food, pay the bills, fix the broken stuff just didn’t exist when we were playing house. Our thoughts only concentrated on the good parts of the activity, the bad stuff just didn’t exist. I believe that this is how the people of Water lived. Their minds only thought about their activity at hand. Any further thinking would spoil the moment and cause pain. So in the case of Water, the souls were perpetually caught in a moment of joy in their activity, any other thoughts just couldn’t exist. For me this is paradise. Here I wouldn’t have to think or worry about what may go wrong, because it never does.
But sometimes things do go wrong on Water, like an attack from Fire. During an attack you would die, join the other souls in the planet, wait your turn, then wake up in your respective town. You don’t remember dying or the wait so for you, your always having fun. Should you live through the attack, you would see your dead friends, but new ones would wake up and you’d once again do whatever you do in that town. To concentrate on your lost friends would be painful, and since pain cannot truly exist here, you quickly forget about their death.
Fire sucks, what more is there to say? When you’re on Fire you suffer. There is no process like on Water to help you ignore the pain. Each town has its own characteristic, so each town focuses on a specific evil. Hogtown is for the bureaucrats, Tunnels are for the insane, K-Town is for the slightly less insane, Princetown is for the very evil, and Duketown is for the slightly less evil.
Hogtown is hell for the bureaucrats. Why, because they strive for a perfect society but can never achieve it. Their need for order surpasses its need for need for helping the needy. In their original live they were probably more concerned with their own artificial rules, then doing what has to be done for the better of the populace, so they’re evil.
K-town is for the backstabbers and sadistics. Everyone frequently turns against each other here, and tries to inflict as much pain on one another as possible. Yea they’re just wrong. The denizens of the Tunnels are wrong too. But they’re wrong in the head, that’s why they’re so sadistic. Like K-town they spend their time killing one another.
Princetown is concerned with the systematic punishing of the really really evil. It’s also there to praise Prince. I think that this is less of a town and more of a torture chamber then any other town on Fire.
If any place of Fire is close to being a true city, Duketown is it. From what I noticed, people here live almost normal lives on this terrible planet. But Duke’s police force keeps its citizens from ever living painless lives. They frequently round people up to be burned for no reason. My guess is that the souls, who wound up here, were slightly evil in their original lives. These were your normal Joes, but they would never go out of their way to help another. More on this place later.
There’s on last town on Fire that I haven’t covered, Girltown. Girltown is a gray area. The “boys” there spent all their time arguing with one another. It was once constant town hall meeting, where nothing ever got accomplished. This was Giggy’s hell! Giggerota was a get up and do it person. Yet here she’s in charge but because she’s just a head, she can’t do anything. We know she would kill all the other “men” if she had the chance. The “girls” of Girltown is the biggest mystery. They’re defiantly not evil, but they’re still here, why?
The Beach is a place of judgment. The judge is yourself. Here’s how I think it works; if you’re a generally good person, or bad person you go to your respective planet instantly. Beach is where you go first if you don’t really fit into either category. This is where you judge yourself based on whether you think you were good or bad. The “girls” of Girltown were not evil. My guess is that they were gay in life, and felt guilty over it. Perhaps when judgment day came, they felt that they being homosexual was morally wrong and deserved punishment. They may have come to this conclusion though after Prince came up with a BS excuse for why they’re evil though. Schlemmi was evil. But his evil was more of I hate this ****hole Luvliner I want out of here at any cost. Schlemmi may have though that his actions in life were warranted and that he was a generally good person, so he went to Water. My point is that if you think you were borderline and you thought you were good you went to Water, otherwise you went to Fire.
Stan has lots of guilt about he 100 reformed planets. He wished he could have blown himself up, but he was too much of a coward to have done it himself. Prince said convinced Stan that he was evil because he wanted to blow up Water. This was a stupid argument but it worked, only because Stan felt that he was already guilty. Prince told us that if he had blown himself up before being captured they he would have skipped beach and gone straight to Water. My guess is that his sacrificing himself is such a good thing that he would have went straight to Water. But generally Stan wasn’t a naturally good person, he wasn’t generally evil either though. IF Stan were slightly more evil then good, I think he would have gone to Duketown. I believe the slightly evil go to Duketown, since it’s the most normal place on Fire, even though the SS is running things there.
So in short, I believe the metaphysics of Lexx is based on a general morality system. The good are rewarded, the bad suffer. How each is accomplished is just details. If your middle of the road, then you decided for yourself, using a sort of relativistic philosophy.I don’t think we’re supposed to think too hard on it. I think we just make up our own strange theories and leave them at that. I doubt if Lex Giggeroff can even explain it. I have my own theories and your are quite plausible and I agree with some of them. But, personally, I think it all depends on your ideas of Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell.
Princess of Fire
Good thoughts, and I can see your reasoning on some of it, but… I can’t agree that Heaven is meant to be a place where you can just “ignore pain”. Also, people were killed on Water in the battles — not very heavenish.
True, everybody on Fire eventually suffers, but some of the more sadistic types have a great time before that happens.
As for Lexx’s morality — well, the real moral seems to be that bad things happen to the good and bad alike. Remember, nobody has ever survived the Lexx, and even Stan, Xev, and Kai have had their share of grief.
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Originally posted by dgrequeen:
Good thoughts, and I can see your reasoning on some of it, but… I can’t agree that Heaven is meant to be a place where you can just “ignore pain”. Also, people were killed on Water in the battles — not very heavenish.
Heaven is supposedly also a place where there was a great battle between two rival armies for the throne. I don’t think that these were tickle fights, and I’m sure that there were heavy casualties on both sides (that is, assuming that this took place).
–Aleck
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Originally posted by Headgehog:
…Prince said convinced Stan that he was evil because he wanted to blow up Water. This was a stupid argument but it worked, only because Stan felt that he was already guilty. Prince told us that if he had blown himself up before being captured they he would have skipped beach and gone straight to Water. My guess is that his sacrificing himself is such a good thing that he would have went straight to Water. But generally Stan wasn’t a naturally good person, he wasn’t generally evil either though.
Headgehog, your interpretation of Fire and Water certainly makes as much, if not more, sense than any others I’ve seen so far, but I don’t think I agree with the part about Prince’s argument to Stan. While I don’t believe Stan is inherently evil, the attempted destruction of Water, which as far as he knew at the time was a conventional fully populated planet, for what was essentially a selfish reason was, in my view, not a good action on his part. I would even agree with Prince that it was attempted mass murder. Therefore, under these circumstances, I probably would have consigned myself to Fire as well if I were Stan.
Besides, there’s always the actual mass murder he committed when he allowed himself to be bullied by Pa Gollean into blowing up Vermal and its’ admittedly less than inviting inhabitants.
Oooh! I posted this on the wrong topic.
It was pretty easy for me to figure out Prince’s role, only ’cause of some of the classes I’ve taken (Prince is very close to the Christian devil, right down to the balloons). And then there’s the semi-Daoist thang (Fire and Water are sorta like a Yin-Yang symbol, only more separate)
Now, from what Prince says, I think that Fire and Water are a artificially constructed heaven and hell. Remember how Prince talks about the ‘system’, and how mistakes are made? (or was that Duke?)Fifi ends up on Water instead of Fire, the Girls end up on Fire instead of Water, things like that. Mistakes are made, which you wouldn’t expect from a system devised by God(s), but if a human were to design a Heaven and Hell…..
(sorry ’bout that, a bit philosophical but at least I spared you the wording philosophers use! :eek )
My point was that Fire and Water looked to be the creation of somthing or somone short of God(s).
The problem with Fire and Water is that Prince is a jerk. Look what he did to poor Stan! Stanley Tweedle was a well-meaning benevolent person who has just shown poor judgment in a few situations. Prince sent him to Fire because he was mad that Stan didn’t blow up Water like he wanted him to. And I’m sure something similar happened to Schlemmi. Schlemmi was evil, but Prince sent him to Water just to shake things up a little in Gametown. Prince breaks the rules and does things just to cause chaos.
It’s not about there being some fundamental flaw in the Universe, it’s about Prince being a jackass.
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Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Stanley Tweedle was a well-meaning benevolent person
Well meaning yes, but what benevolent things has Stanly Tweedle ever done?
MESSAGE ORIGINALLY POSTED BY MICROMARY (needed to be re-posted because of a time stamp problem with the server).
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My thoughts:
First of all, I think everyone is wrong in trying to designate Fire as Hell and Water as Heaven. They’re called Fire AND Water. Together they constitute a place we Catholics call Purgatory. If you were somewhere between Evil Incarnate (and had an express ticket to Hell) and Candidate for Canonization (and had an express ticket to Heaven) – in other words, us everyday people – your first stop was going to be Purgatory. Purgatory is the place to purge your sins, your imperfections, or just plain get rid of your feelings of guilt. It’s the place to do the time for doing the crime, to write 100 times on the blackboard “I must not throw spit balls in class” until you get it right. It’s a second chance to avoid the fire and brimstone and gain admittance to the Pearly Gates. Well, you get the idea.
Now I was never taught the actual mechanics of Purgatory. I don’t know if it’s a continuous spectrum of steps you had to take and you could move forward or backward depending on how you comported yourself at each stage. That would explain how Schlemmi ended up on Gametown after one of his wake-ups. He may have accidentally done something especially GOOD on Fire that got him moved up the ranks several stages, sooner that he was actually ready to move. However, I really don’t want to think about what Mother Theresa could have possibly done to merit manning the bellows under Princetown, instead of being on one of the last cities on Water before you get to Heaven.
It may be that Purgatory is a continuous spectrum of categories and you are assigned to one of those categories. You put in your time in that same slot, going over your sins over and over again, until you finally learn your lesson from those mistakes and get your ticket to Heaven. Season 3 makes more sense in this context, since even on Water there’s suffering and death and “waking up” again. Everybody on Water has been naughty – or less than perfect – to a lesser degree than those on Fire. While waiting in limbo to wake up again you have time to reflect on what you did and hope some of that introspection carries over with you when you do wake up.
Therefore, Princetown is where you go to just plain “work off” all your sins. Prince did say something about it being the place where the worst cases go. Hogtown is where petty bureaucrats who are too much in love with procedures and paperwork, to the extent they will let the bad go unpunished and the good suffer needless, go to endlessly shuffle paperwork until they wake up and realize they’re drowning in the stuff. K-Town is where we get to see Kai’s codpiece… errrr, sorry…
is where bullies get to pick on each other and throw rocks until they realize IT HURTS. Tunnels is where the psychopaths go to torture and be tortured until they realize it hurts the other guy as much as it’s hurting you. Over on Water, Gametown is where people who can’t play well with others have to keep playing the game over and over again until they realize the way to win is to work together as a team. Boomtown is where people who too readily indulge their excesses go to wallow in those excesses until they become bored and realize how much time they’ve wasted in indulgences. Garden is where nuns who’ve had “naughty thoughts” go.
Like Headgehog, I have a problem with Girltown. At first look, it seems to be saying homosexuality is a sin, since the sexes are completely segregated and seem to like it that way. But the “boys” seem more concerned with their points of order than each other. The only eyes they make at each other are to look angry or frustrated. The “girls” however, seem to be more intimate with each other, and certainly act rather “gay.” Perhaps Girltown was meant for chauvinists – male and female – to give them a taste of what it’s like for the “other side.” The “boys” find out that being the ones to make the rules is actually not that much fun and the “girls” find out just what it’s like to be “chained” to the housework.
Prince is the caretaker of Purgatory. He’s certainly one of the fallen angels, but he’s not Lucifer himself, since he’s trapped on Fire and Water. As much as he wants to, he’s not allowed to destroy Water, so even in his realm he’s limited. Like Lucifer and his minions, Prince tries to tempt and trick Stan and Xev into doing the wrong thing. When Stan faces his Judgment Day on the Beach and Prince tells him if he’d been willing to sacrifice his life rather than give up the amino acid codes, he’d be on Water right now, I think Prince is indicating that Stan still had some guilt/sin to work off. Stan is certainly carrying a lot of baggage, so Prince uses this to his advantage to give Stan the worst spot in Purgatory: manning the bellows below Princetown. Stan is certainly less-than-perfect, but I don’t think he’s done anything to deserve THAT harsh a punishment.
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Originally posted by Micromary:
First of all, I think everyone is wrong in trying to designate Fire as Hell and Water as Heaven. They’re called Fire AND Water. Together they constitute a place we Catholics call Purgatory. If you were somewhere between Evil Incarnate (and had an express ticket to Hell) and Candidate for Canonization (and had an express ticket to Heaven) – in other words, us everyday people – your first stop was going to be Purgatory. Purgatory is the place to purge your sins, your imperfections, or just plain get rid of your feelings of guilt. It’s the place to do the time for doing the crime, to write 100 times on the blackboard “I must not throw spit balls in class” until you get it right. It’s a second chance to avoid the fire and brimstone and gain admittance to the Pearly Gates. Well, you get the idea.
I’m not Catholic, so I don’t know much of anything about purgatory. But Water and Fire seem to be Heaven and Hell, a permanent treatment. The only evidence otherwise is K-Town (“My punishment is over.”). I would think the only thing analogous to purgatory in the Lexx cosmologies would be the limboes where souls wait while others occupy the planet. There would be two, one for Water and one for Fire.
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Hogtown is where petty bureaucrats who are too much in love with procedures and paperwork, to the extent they will let the bad go unpunished and the good suffer needless, go to endlessly shuffle paperwork until they wake up and realize they’re drowning in the stuff.
Hogtown doesn’t seem to me to fit in with Fire being a punishment. It’s populated by a lot of intellectuals who want to classify and categorize the planet Fire. I don’t see how they’re bad, or how the place is a punishment.
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Over on Water, Gametown is where people who can’t play well with others have to keep playing the game over and over again until they realize the way to win is to work together as a team.
I don’t think Gametown was supposed to be any sort of punishment or learning experience. That’s some people’s idea of Heaven. For me, that would be closer to Hell, though. Perpetual team sports?
At least in junior high it only seemed like forever.quote:
Garden is where nuns who’ve had “naughty thoughts” go.
Now, how can Garden City be any kind of punishment? There’s nothing wrong with it (besides that nasty weed Lyekka
). The Garden would be like the ultimate reward. I know I’d rather be there than any other place in Lexx‘s two universes. Everything’s just perfect and beautiful and happy. quote:
Stan is certainly less-than-perfect, but I don’t think he’s done anything to deserve THAT harsh a punishment.
I know. He never did anything real bad in his life. Prince is just a jerk.
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Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Hogtown doesn’t seem to me to fit in with Fire being a punishment. It’s populated by a lot of intellectuals who want to classify and categorize the planet Fire. I don’t see how they’re bad, or how the place is a punishment.
Their punishment is the aggrevation of never achieving their goal.
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Originally posted by Headgehog:
Their punishment is the aggrevation of never achieving their goal.
Like Sisyphus? I’m not sure about that. (Sisyphus was a legendary king of Corinth condemned eternally to repeat the cycle of rolling a heavy rock up a hill in Hades only to have it roll down again as it nears the top. Sisyphus is also a cool song by Pink Floyd on their album, Ummagumma.)
It seemed to me that Hogtown was all about endless and torturous bureaucracy. With so much red tape, nothing gets done. It’s a manifestation of blameless evil. It’s no one’s fault because the buck is always passed up the chain of command and all the leaders are just following rules that always exempt them from blame. Pretty much just like any corporation.
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I’m not Catholic, so I don’t know much of anything about purgatory. But Water and Fire seem to be Heaven and Hell, a permanent treatment. The only evidence otherwise is K-Town (“My punishment is over.”). I would think the only thing analogous to purgatory in the Lexx cosmologies would be the limboes where wait while others occupy the planet. There would be two, one for Water and one for Fire.
But how do we know it’s a permanent treatment? We aren’t on Fire and Water long enough to know if some of the souls get to move on to something else if the twin worlds ARE Purgatory. I still have trouble seeing Water as Heaven. How can it be Heaven when all the inhabitants have to be on the alert for an attack from Prince? Your suffering is supposed to end when you finally attain Heaven, but on all the cities of Water we’ve seen there have been people dying from balloon attacks and the cities set afire.
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Hogtown doesn’t seem to me to fit in with Fire being a punishment. It’s populated by a lot of intellectuals who want to classify and categorize the planet Fire. I don’t see how they’re bad, or how the place is a punishment.
But if you believe Fire is Hell, then Hogtown HAS to be a place of punishment. If it is a place of eternal punishment, then their punishment is never being able to achieve their goal, as Headgehog and Flamegrape have stated. If it IS Purgatory, then the punishment would end once they come to realize the futility of what they’re doing and change their behavior.
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I don’t think Gametown was supposed to be any sort of punishment or learning experience. That’s some people’s idea of Heaven. For me, that would be closer to Hell, though. Perpetual team sports? At least in junior high it only seemed like forever.
Heheh, reminds me of the saying “One man’s Heaven is another man’s Hell.” But again, if it WAS Heaven, why did people have to stay alert for an attack from Prince, and why did they have to die?
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Now, how can Garden City be any kind of punishment? There’s nothing wrong with it (besides that nasty weed Lyekka ). The Garden would be like the ultimate reward. I know I’d rather be there than any other place in Lexx’s two universes. Everything’s just perfect and beautiful and happy.
Hardly perfect and happy when, again, there’s a warning gong on Garden and Prince’s balloons attack the city. We saw Lyekka die on camera, no doubt the gardeners were killed, too. Guess my “naughty nuns” joke did go over very well, but I was referring to the fact that the only sex on Garden is plant sex. The gardeners seem a bit naïve about human sexual intercourse and oblivious to the phallic and labial symbols all over the place.
There are just too many similarities on Fire and Water to say they are Hell and Heaven, which are supposed to be diametrically opposite. The beings on both planets die, go to a holding area, and “wake up” again. Prince has some influence on Fire, a lesser amount on Water, but he, too, is trapped in the endless cycle of death and rebirth. Prince is the “ruler” of Fire, but why don’t we see his equivalent on Water? This says to me that Fire and Water are part of the same continuum and Prince is only the caretaker of the place. This version of Purgatory is a place where you have to write 100 times (or keep waking up) “I must not misbehave in class” until the lesson sinks in and you get to move on to Heaven. I just can’t see the Devil (Prince) having that much influence in Heaven if Fire is supposed to be Hell and Water is supposed to be Heaven.
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Originally posted by Micromary:
[QB]How can it be Heaven when all the inhabitants have to be on the alert for an attack from Prince? QB]
Well, Micro, at least according to the Christian Bible.. Heaven is not a perfect place, the Devil is not trapped in Hell and he can apparently come and go as he pleases. Sorry I am not that astute to point out speciffic verses but I’m sure I have some Satanist friends out there who can back that statement up. Actually Heaven seems to be a place of chaos somewhat. Do not forget about the “War in Heaven”. Only after the second coming of Christ will the old Heaven and Earth be destroyed and a new Heaven and New Earth will made that will be joined and those will be “perfect” and the rest will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternal damnation.
Of course let’s not forget that every major religion has it’s own views of Heaven and Hell. Jehova’s Witness believe Earth is Hell. The writers are taking the most basic of concepts and making up their own for their own fictional universe.
Good to see you posting again, Micro. We thought you said you weren’t coming back. But let’s remember, kiddies, that LEXX was not a show meant to be taken too seriously and as a friend of mine once said to me, just joking around of course, who was a Jehova’s Witness, “See you in Hell.”
“The Chinese mix everytyhing up.. we take what we want and leave the rest.. just like your salad bar.” -Egg Shin Big Trouble In Little China
Hmm, Micromary has a point, there’s no evidence of a God in either of the two planets.
They would be imperfect, hence not (if we’re talking about Christianity)’worthy’ of Him (Protestent Christianity). But I think they’re an artificial system, set up by somthing to punish the guilty and reward the innocent (dosen’t Prince say somthing to that effect?)
Besides, I don’t think Satan is supposed to controal Purgetory. Hmm.
Never insult an agnostic’s ‘faith’, or they’ll come by and make a huge question mark on your lawn.
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Originally posted by Micromary:
But if you believe Fire is Hell, then Hogtown HAS to be a place of punishment. If it is a place of eternal punishment, then their punishment is never being able to achieve their goal, as Headgehog and Flamegrape have stated. If it IS Purgatory, then the punishment would end once they come to realize the futility of what they’re doing and change their behavior.
I wasn’t doubting that it was punishment, I was just saying that I don’t understand how it would be.
Perhaps the scene was written before Heaven and Hell were factors, and was transferred to Fire later. A lot of things in season three don’t seem consistent with Water and Fire being Heaven and Hell. This I attribute to attempts to confuse viewers and poor writing.quote:
Hardly perfect and happy when, again, there’s a warning gong on Garden and Prince’s balloons attack the city. We saw Lyekka die on camera, no doubt the gardeners were killed, too.
That’s because if Garden City wasn’t invaded by dangerous elements (Lyekka, Prince) then the episodes taking place in it would be (even more) boring. Utopian fiction is boring unless there’s a drop of evil in the plot to generate conflict. More poor writing from season three.
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Guess my “naughty nuns” joke did go over very well, but I was referring to the fact that the only sex on Garden is plant sex. The gardeners seem a bit naïve about human sexual intercourse and oblivious to the phallic and labial symbols all over the place.
Not the most unfunny joke on the board. I, after all, am a member.
But seriously, folks, Garden City seems like (near-)perfect bliss, and I can’t conceive of it to be any sort of punishment. I, for one, would love to stay in there (if only for a little while). Let’s face it, Garden City is the best place we’ve ever seen in Lexx. The lack of sex just seems logical. It is, after all, Heaven. I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say there are phallic symbols in the Garden (and what does “labial symbol” mean? I’m unfamiliar with your lingo). Whatever you’re talking about, I seem to be oblivious to it as well. quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Perhaps the scene was written before Heaven and Hell were factors, and was transferred to Fire later. A lot of things in season three don’t seem consistent with Water and Fire being Heaven and Hell. This I attribute to attempts to confuse viewers and poor writing……That’s because if Garden City wasn’t invaded by dangerous elements (Lyekka, Prince) then the episodes taking place in it would be (even more) boring. Utopian fiction is boring unless there’s a drop of evil in the plot to generate conflict. More poor writing from season three.
Uhh no! Just because you didn’t catchon doesn’t mean the rest of us didn’t. s3 was written extremely well.
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But seriously, folks, Garden City seems like (near-)perfect bliss, and I can’t conceive of it to be any sort of punishment. I, for one, would love to stay in there (if only for a little while). Let’s face it, Garden City is the best place we’ve ever seen in Lexx. The lack of sex just seems logical. It is, after all, Heaven. I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say there are phallic symbols in the Garden
Dude, grow a libido, please! As for phallic symbols, take a good look at the watering cans, then look down in the shower.
I think I speak for many of us when I say, Boomtown all the way!
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Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Not the most unfunny joke on the board. I, after all, am a member.
But seriously, folks, Garden City seems like (near-)perfect bliss, and I can’t conceive of it to be any sort of punishment. I, for one, would love to stay in there (if only for a little while). Let’s face it, Garden City is the best place we’ve ever seen in Lexx. The lack of sex just seems logical. It is, after all, Heaven. I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say there are phallic symbols in the Garden (and what does “labial symbol” mean? I’m unfamiliar with your lingo). Whatever you’re talking about, I seem to be oblivious to it as well.
First I’d have to refer you to any good book on human anatomy, specifically human FEMALE anatomy. Then you’d need to go back and take a VERY close look at the centers of some of those flowers. There’s a remarkable resemblance…..
There are just too many similarities on Fire and Water to say they are Hell and Heaven, which are supposed to be diametrically opposite. The beings on both planets die, go to a holding area, and “wake up” again. Prince has some influence on Fire, a lesser amount on Water, but he, too, is trapped in the endless cycle of death and rebirth. Prince is the “ruler” of Fire, but why don’t we see his equivalent on Water? This says to me that Fire and Water are part of the same continuum and Prince is only the caretaker of the place. This version of Purgatory is a place where you have to write 100 times (or keep waking up) “I must not misbehave in class” until the lesson sinks in and you get to move on to Heaven. I just can’t see the Devil (Prince) having that much influence in Heaven if Fire is supposed to be Hell and Water is supposed to be Heaven.
I think Micromary struck a chord with the comment about the endless cycle of death and rebirth. This is how some eastern religions see existence, caught up in an endless cycle (the turning wheel), until enlightenment is reached and one is released from the cycle. This is more of Paul Donovan’s fascination with cycles and spirals. Fire and Water in Season 3 may have been an illustration of how the entire Lexx series is meant to be viewed. We’ll know for sure when the finale airs.
I think that arguing that the planets Water and Fire are not Heaven and Hell is interesting, but ultimately wrong-headed. I mean, if the Beans did not intend the two planets to be seen as representations of the two afterlife destinations, they wouldn’t have titled the concluding episode of Season 3 “Heaven and Hell.” If you wanted to take a post-modern stance and argue that the intent of the artist is of no consequence, and that it’s the viewer’s interpretation that is paramount, then you could make the point, but I think it’s fairly clear what the Beans’ intentions were. I think that their actual and more detailed intent, though, was not to make a literal translation of what most religions believe the afterlife to be, but to give their own take on the subject.
Now, as I’ve said before, Heaven is *not* a place of everlasting joy and absence of stress. If that were the case, then there would never have been an uprising against the throne, and Lucifer would have never been cast out. As this was, according to the mythology, a great war, we can assume that casualties were heavy on both sides. Pain was inflicted, angels were killed, bad stuff went down. This war between the planes dovetails nicely with the eternal war between Fire and Water. As it can be said that there is an eternal struggle between good and evil, it stands to reason that an eternal struggle between Fire and Water would take place (and the “reincarnation” bit makes sense there as well…if someone there gets “killed,” they return in roughly the same place they were before). Prince is able to approach (though we never see him land, we can assume that he *can* set foot there) water in the same way that Satan is able to confer with YHVH from time to time. For instance, Satan approaches YHVH regarding the Job situation, and his malleable nature allows for things like this to take place (I mean, for a while, he’s YHVH’s henchman and doing his dirty work, then he’s imprisoned in Hell, then he’s able to come to Earth whenever he wants in whatever form he chooses, etc.).
As for Hogtown, it could be that it’s not the adjucationists’ punishment that we’re looking at, but those subject *to* the adjucation. It’s Hell for those who hate the Department of Motor Vehicles or visiting their insurance agency. The adjucationists are the *administrators* of the punishment, much in the way that Prince is (though they’d be subservient to Prince, like Azazel or Beelzebub is to Satan).
As for the statements about Prince judging people, or sending Stan to Fire, as well as the question of the presence of “mistakes” in placement (the Girls of Girltown and Fifi in Gametown), here’s my take: Prince doesn’t judge anyone. In the cosmology of Season 3, there is no supreme judge aside from one’s own self. Prince merely acts as a prosecuting attorney. If the subject believes (as Stan ultimately did) that he or she was deserving only of punishment, then they were placed on Fire. The Girls may have concealed some self-loathing regarding themselves, believing themselves to be guilty of violating some sin, while Schlemmi may have been completely convinced of his own righteousness and was able to convince himself (in white) that he belonged on Water. In this way, it’s like the depiction of Hell in Neil Gaiman’s Sandman comics: Hell exists for those who believe in it, and those who believe that they belong there are damned (and Heaven isn’t painted that prettily either, now that I think about it).
Now, about Water, there isn’t a God figure because the Beans may believe that a true paradise doesn’t require supervision (I mean, really, why would it?). All of the needs of the denizens are provided by people whose love is to provide those needs, and if they’re killed, they come back in paradise again with no memory of being killed. The residents of Garden love to, well, garden. Those in Gametown love to play. Those in Boomtown love to…well…you get the picture. Sure, they face threats, but in this cosmology (and taking into account the Great War), it makes some kind of sense.Anyway, just random rambling now that I’m back from vacation.
–Aleck
Well, there aren’t any books on Water, and they don’t show Lexx there either! I could live in Boomtown, but I’d get bored. Yeah, most of the cities on Water would make me miserable if I had to stay there for a long time.
I think Aleck has the best point so far:
quote:
Prince merely acts as a prosecuting attorney. If the subject believes (as Stan ultimately did) that he or she was deserving only of punishment, then they were placed on Fire. The Girls may have concealed some self-loathing regarding themselves, believing themselves to be guilty of violating some sin, while Schlemmi may have been completely convinced of his own righteousness and was able to convince himself (in white) that he belonged on Water. In this way, it’s like the depiction of Hell in Neil Gaiman’s Sandman comics: Hell exists for those who believe in it, and those who believe that they belong there are damned (and Heaven isn’t painted that prettily either, now that I think about it).
Now, about Water, there isn’t a God figure because the Beans may believe that a true paradise doesn’t require supervision (I mean, really, why would it?).
The girls seemed pretty self confident to me, though. However, the rest of it makes sense.
But one last thing, Prince dosen’t reign supreme. He had Duke and Priest try to take over, although he was more powerfull than them (Duke could only come back as Duke). There were always limits on his power. He’s limited, almost as Satan was in Job (YWH gives Satan permission to hurt Job, presumably Satan needed this permission)
Now in Christian conceptions of Hell, Satan isn’t hindered by anything but the power of God.
Oh, you were on vacation Aleck? Welcome back.
[ 17-12-2001: Message edited by: Hypatia ]
quote:
Originally posted by Hypatia:
Well, there aren’t any books on Water, and they don’t show Lexx there either! I could live in Boomtown, but I’d get bored. Yeah, most of the cities on Water would make me miserable if I had to stay there for a long time.
Yeah, but, as far as we know, we haven’t seen most of the cities on Water. The entirety of Season 3 takes place over the span of a few days, or 3 weeks tops. We don’t really know what other towns are on Water.
quote
The girls seemed pretty self confident to me, though. However, the rest of it makes sense.
Well, they’re self-confident *now*. Hindsight being 20/20, you know.
quote:
But one last thing, Prince dosen’t reign supreme. He had Duke and Priest try to take over, although he was more powerfull than them (Duke could only come back as Duke). There were always limits on his power. He’s limited, almost as Satan was in Job (YWH gives Satan permission to hurt Job, presumably Satan needed this permission)
Now in Christian conceptions of Hell, Satan isn’t hindered by anything but the power of God.
Well, to restate my point, I think that we shouldn’t be really enforcing a Christian conception of Hell or Heaven upon S3, but instead take Fire on its own terms. To use the example I mentioned previously (the conception of Hell as presented by Neil Gaiman in his comic series Sandman, which is based on previously established history in the DC Universe, particularly Swamp Thing #50…but I’m geeking here), Satan (referred to in the comic as Lucifer Morningstar) rules Hell as part of a triumvirate with Beelzebub and Azazel, a condition which arose as part of a civil war in the underworld (and which, possibly not coincidentally, has parallels with the Priest and Duke situation: while Hell is ruled by this triumvirate, Lucifer still pretty much runs the show much in the same way that no matter how much power Priest and Duke try to usurp, Prince still holds the most power).
Inasmuch as the Job situation, I always thought that Satan’s admonition to only hurt Job was more of a “rule of the game,” as it were. I thought that YHVH was basically saying that Satan could hurt Job all he wanted without YHVH stepping in and relieving Job in any way. It wasn’t so much a matter of YHVH saying “You can hurt him,” but “I won’t do anything to help him, so let him have it.”quote:
Oh, you were on vacation Aleck? Welcome back.
Thanks.
–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by Micromary:
First I’d have to refer you to any good book on human anatomy, specifically human FEMALE anatomy. Then you’d need to go back and take a VERY close look at the centers of some of those flowers. There’s a remarkable resemblance…..
Oh, so you’re saying the flowers look like female parts. I find it unlikely that it was intentional (if such resemblance really exists). I don’t have a picture of flowers in Garden to examine, but I do have a picture of the watering can to evaluate your claims (if this works…):
I think you’re seeing things that aren’t there. It’s a watering can. It doesn’t look a sexual organ, it looks like a watering can. That’s all it is. Nothing more, nothing less. And I think your perceiving it as a phallic symbol reveals more about your personal psychology than the intentions of the makers of the show.
quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Oh, so you’re saying the flowers look like female parts. I find it unlikely that it was intentional (if such resemblance really exists). I don’t have a picture of flowers in Garden to examine, but I do have a picture of the watering can to evaluate your claims (if this works…):
I think you’re seeing things that aren’t there. It’s a watering can. It doesn’t look a sexual organ, it looks like a watering can. That’s all it is. Nothing more, nothing less. And I think your perceiving it as a phallic symbol reveals more about your personal psychology than the intentions of the makers of the show.
Anything sex related in Lexx is intentional. ie the wall paper in Boomtown. As for the watering can, take a good hard look at the noozle to the thing; then look down in the shower, you can’t honestly say that there is no resembelance.
quote:
Well, to restate my point, I think that we shouldn’t be really enforcing a Christian conception of Hell or Heaven upon S3, but instead take Fire on its own terms. To use the example I mentioned previously (the conception of Hell as presented by Neil Gaiman in his comic series Sandman, which is based on previously established history in the DC Universe, particularly Swamp Thing #50…but I’m geeking here), Satan (referred to in the comic as Lucifer Morningstar) rules Hell as part of a triumvirate with Beelzebub and Azazel, a condition which arose as part of a civil war in the underworld (and which, possibly not coincidentally, has parallels with the Priest and Duke situation: while Hell is ruled by this triumvirate, Lucifer still pretty much runs the show much in the same way that no matter how much power Priest and Duke try to usurp, Prince still holds the most power).
Good comparison, Aleck. I’d not seen the Sandman comparison before, but it makes sense. Along the same lines, “The Beach” reminds me a bit of Red Dwarf’s “The Inquisitor.”
“But how will I know I get a fair trial?”
“Because, like all who stand before the Inquisitor, your judge shall be… yourself.”
“Everyone is judged by their own self?”
“It’s a bit metaphysical, I know, but it’s the only fair way. Now then: justify yourself.”
…
“The Cat and Rimmer have led more worthwhile lives than either of us?”
“He is a shallow and selfish creature. As is the hologram. By their own low standards they have acquitted themselves. Whereas you, and the mechanoid, could have been so much more.”Nah, not at all similar.
quote:
Originally posted by Headgehog:
Anything sex related in Lexx is intentional. ie the wall paper in Boomtown. As for the watering can, take a good hard look at the noozle to the thing; then look down in the shower, you can’t honestly say that there is no resembelance.
Amen. In a series that is (if you’ll excuse the fruit metaphor) ripe with sexual allusion, it is well nigh impossible to ignore the sexual symbolism in this particular episode (and it’s not just me and Micro that see the watering can, take a look at the review that Sad posted for his take on the can). Particularly telling is the presentation of the phallic watering can (how many watering cans have *you* seen with bulbous bases, rounded tips and one small hole for the release of fluids?), the opening of the…erm…flower (flowers are commonly used as references to female genitalia, as evidenced in the paintings of Georgia O’Keefe and a wide host of other sources), and Stan’s statement that he’d “like to water your flower” when speaking to Lily (I think). Also telling is the fact that all of the gardeners, all female, are named after flowers (another allusion). Gardening is all about fertility and fertilization, and for the Beans to use a garden as a setting and *not* make use of this fact in order to delve into more sexual metaphor makes little sense in the context of the series. In fact, when the entire episode is practically centered around Stan’s desire to recieve oral sex, it makes even *less* sense.
In fact, DT, I’d take an opposite stance from your own: for you to *not* see the sexual symbolism in this episode says more about your own personal psychology than the intentions of the makers of the show.–Aleck
[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: Aleck ]
As for Hogtown, it could be that it’s not the adjucationists’ punishment that we’re looking at, but those subject *to* the adjucation…
Actually, since seeing that episode, I’ve had a sneaking suspicion that the adjudicators were reincarnated Brunnen-G, paying the price for their love of endless bureaucracy. My suspicion was prompted by the adjudicator who hums the Brunnen-G tune to himself when Kai steals his balloon (since that was the song they sang when they are about to die).
Now, about Water, there isn’t a God figure because the Beans may believe that a true paradise doesn’t require supervision (I mean, really, why would it?). All of the needs of the denizens are provided by people whose love is to provide those needs, and if they’re killed, they come back in paradise again with no memory of being killed.
I have to agree with this point, that Heaven and Hell don’t correspond exactly with the Christian interpretation of those places. After all, in Christian theology, God IS the point of Heaven and Hell, but in Buddhism, for instance, the fact of the existence of God is not taken for granted. So the Beans have definitely put their own spin on it.
And they’d probably laugh their heads off at us, if they saw this conversation.
BTW, DT, how can you POSSIBLY look at that gigglingly obscene watering can and NOT see a penis?
[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: dgrequeen ]
[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: dgrequeen ]
“It is interesting that people try to find meaningful patterns in things that are essentially random. I have noticed that the images they perceive sometimes suggest what they are thinking about at that particular moment. Besides, it is clearly a bunny rabbit” -Data, when he and Guinan were looking at nebula FGC147.
Aleck-Since you seem to have some knowledge of psychology, you may be familiar with the phenomenon of pareidolia (the Rorschach effect). That is, the interpretation of meaning in meaningless patterns (visual or auditory), stemming from the mind of the viewer trying to make sense of things. This is what causes people to see images like faces in things like inkblots, clouds, trees, the World Trade Center wreckage, and photographs of Mars. And I think this applies in this case. Just because you see a naughty shape in a watering can in Garden (or hear warnings of a coming race war in “Helter-Skelter” by the Beatles) doesn’t mean the makers put it there intentionally.
Maybe the watering can is a phallic symbol, but I doubt it. It’s a watering can. It’s an artsy, maybe abstract expressionist watering can, but a watering can nonetheless). You can’t say any cylindrical form in a T.V. show or movie is an intentional phallic symbol. Obelisks, lightsabers, Babylon 5…you’ve got to draw the line somewhere. SadGeezer (or NewKate, more likely) just saw the watering can and thought it might be that kind of symbol. So that was implied on the website so other people could read it, look back at the show, and think “oh yeah, I see it now.” Pareidolia plus the power of suggestion.
And yes, I know that under certain circumstances flowers can symbolize personal female organs (flowers are essentially the sexual organs of plants). I’m not naïve.
I will present you with my interpretation of Garden (which you will, no doubt contradict at every point).
The Garden is like a return to childhood. The gardeners live a simple, sheltered lives with next to no knowledge of what goes on the outside world. Emotionally they are like children. They are only concerned with being happy, and don’t understand the complex issues of events outside of the Garden.
Their world is disrupted by the arrival of the moth containing Stan, Xev, and Kai. To them, the Garden is a refuge from the stress and conflict that usually fill their lives, but their (especially Stan’s) presence has a detrimental effect on the locals. They are unable to leave their troubles at the gates of Garden City, and introduce alien concepts to the Garden. Stan is a completely alien life form. He is the antithesis of the gardeners, his lustful restlessness contrasting their innocent and static lives. If Lyekka is a weed (as in my earlier simile), then Stan is a pest nibbling at the leaves of the plants. He tries to seduce the gardeners. He attempts to corrupt their childlike innocence with his “adult” thoughts. In his mind they’re past due to mature (he sees them as ripe and ready for plucking, to borrow a line from 790’s poetry), but the lives of Water Dwellers are not progressive. The new gardener, which had apparently just been created (unless I am mistaken, the “waking up” Fifi referred to is the Water equivalent of birth) was already fully grown by living people standards. It would seem the gardeners are born and die in a form that is physically adult but mentally analogous to young children. But Stan can’t make them “grow up.” They don’t know about sex, so and all he does is confuse them.
Then he wants them to grow Lyekka. The gardeners, just wanting to make him happy, oblige. Stan failed to consider the consequences of introducing Lyekka to the Garden. She eats the gardeners. It is then that we learn that the gardeners are not completely impervious emotionally, because they show fear at having their lives ended (no one on Water seems to realize that they will return to the planet after “death”). Then, to top all that came before, the presence of the Lexx crew attracts the attention of Prince, and the Fire Dwellers attack Garden City.
As I see it, Garden is the story of a simple, childlike paradise disrupted by the thoughts and conflicts of the adult world.
quote
SadGeezer (or NewKate, more likely) just saw the watering can and thought it might be that kind of symbol. So that was implied on the website…
Oh, my… and on what basis do you make that assumption? Seems to me Saddy’s pretty fair about giving credit to Newkate when her opinions make it into the reviews. Engaging in a little gender stereotyping, aren’t we? quote:
Originally posted by DalekTek790:
Aleck-Since you seem to have some knowledge of psychology, you may be familiar with the phenomenon of pareidolia (the Rorschach effect). That is, the interpretation of meaning in meaningless patterns (visual or auditory), stemming from the mind of the viewer trying to make sense of things. This is what causes people to see images like faces in things like inkblots, clouds, trees, the World Trade Center wreckage, and photographs of Mars. And I think this applies in this case. Just because you see a naughty shape in a watering can in Garden (or hear warnings of a coming race war in “Helter-Skelter” by the Beatles) doesn’t mean the makers put it there intentionally.
I am familiar with the concept, as would be anyone with a smattering of knowledge about psychology. However, I don’t think that it applies here, and allow me to explain.
(And, as a side note, I personally don’t hear any warnings about a coming race war in “Helter Skelter.” It’s a song about a sliding board.)
I don’t qualify any cylindrical object as a phallic symbol. Some are, of course, and some more overt than others. This watering can, however, is definitely an overt one. The makers of LEXX have never shied away from making sexual references in any means, and this episode is full of the sly use of symbols. Firstly, Stan dreams of Lyekka (a plant/woman, which firstly introduces the link between females, sexuality and plant life), who confirms that she is “smooth ’round the bend,” and then says that she wants to make Stan happy. The next thing we see is her mouth grotesquely emphasized (a nightmarish image, of course, but coupled with her lack of sexual organs, implies oral gratification — an image that surely informs Stan’s decision to have the Gardeners grow Lyekka in order to have her teach the Gardeners how to please a man “in other ways”). The crew arrive in Garden, a place populated by women named after flowers (further emphasizing the correlation between flowers and women that we’ll see in symbolism later). The women provide Water with food in the form of fruits (again bringing up a sexual correlation in linking women with fertility and “bearing fruit”). Stan, being the horndog that he is, immediately goes to work in trying to seduce the Gardeners. If I remember the episode correctly, there is one scene in particular in which Stan informs a Gardener that he wants to “water her plant” or flower or something to that effect. This is accompanied by shots of the watering can, with its phallic design, watering a blooming flower (the rather graphic and patently O’Keefe-esque resemblance has been already mentioned, and is seen frequently within this episode). Now, as you’ve said, flowers are basically the sexual organs of plants, and as has been established, flowers are commonly used as a symbol for the female genitalia. The use of all of these elements, with the emphasis on linking sex with gardening terms and plant life (I haven’t even mentioned the melons or the sexual innuendo leading to the punchline of that joke), leads me to believe that the phallic design of the watering can is very deliberate. If it *wasn’t*, it was a very happy mistake in that it’s keeping with the tone of practically every other element in the episode.quote
I will present you with my interpretation of Garden (which you will, no doubt contradict at every point).
Actually, despite what you think, I don’t disagree with everything you say just to be disagreeable. There are good and solid reasons behind the things I say and believe, and the things I disagree with you about. In fact, I don’t disagree with you for the most part in this interpretation of “Garden,” but only have a few quibbles over some fine points. Firstly, I don’t think that the Garden represents truly a return to childhood. The Gardeners are quite childlike in their innocence, but they seem more naive than juvenile. Like you say, they are only concerned with what makes them happy, and it just so happens that what makes them happy is beneficial to the rest of Water. But I don’t see them as truly childlike. Like everyone else on Water, they don’t understand anything that’s outside of their day-to-day existence (Boomtowners don’t get having too much sex, Gametowners don’t really understand anything outside of the games they play, etc.). They only seem innocent and naive when confronted with the LEXX crew. Also, I don’t see them as too terrified by the threat posed by Lyekka. In fact, they line up to be taken by her. Lyekka really doesn’t have to chase any of them down, they all come to her willingly, knowing that when one goes, another Gardener will come to replace her (even stating this to Lyekka blatantly; they obviously have no fear of death when taking it from the most beautiful plant they’ve ever seen…and I’m sure I need not make the point about the literary correlation of death and orgasm).
Other than that, though, I pretty much agree with your interpretation.
–Aleck
DT, you’re the only person I’ve heard claim that isn’t a sexual symbol. I watched Garden with a friend, who was rolling his eyes all through it. And the gardeners moaning when Lykyya is being grown, and the gardeners enjoying being ‘eaten’.
What about the discussion on ‘small furry animals’ between Lykyya and Lomia?
(notice my ‘cunning’ use of the emoticon )Aleck is right, Fire and Water aren’t Christian, but the Beans do borrow from Christianity, especially medieval Christianity.
Beavis: What’s this show we’re watching? Heh-heh-heh.
Butthead: Uhhhhh… Laxx, I think. I think it’s about that guy in black who can’t pinch a loaf. Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh.
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! And the red-haired chick is trying to help him. Heh-heh-heh. Heh-heh-heh.
Butthead: Whoa! Cooool! Check out their spaceship. It looks like a tool!
Beavis: Heh-heh-heh. Heh-heh-heh.
Butthead: Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh.
Beavis: Look! It’s blowing up a planet! Aaaaa! Fire! Fire! Fire! Heh-heh-heh. Heh-heh-heh. Flamable spoo!
Butthead: Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh. You said… “spoo” Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh. Uh-huh-huh.
quote:
Originally posted by Hypatia:
What about the discussion on ‘small furry animals’ between Lykyya and Lomia?
quote:
Actually, since seeing that episode, I’ve had a sneaking suspicion that the adjudicators were reincarnated Brunnen-G, paying the price for their love of endless bureaucracy. My suspicion was prompted by the adjudicator who hums the Brunnen-G tune to himself when Kai steals his balloon (since that was the song they sang when they are about to die).
[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: dgrequeen ][/QB]
the adjudicators seemed to me like the divine clerics when I first saw them. I’m not going to bother with any supporting details since this’ll be shot down anyhow. But did anyone else get that impression?
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