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Does anybody else think the whole Willow thing was a bit of a Cop Out? After everyone else trying to reason with her, telling her that this wasn’t what Tara would have would have wanted, and it was Xander saying “I love you” that changed her mind? I just think that after the big buid up they gave it,it was a bit anti-climactic. Anybody agree/disagree?
Yeah it was too easy and predictable, personally I would like to have seen Giles give some sort of magic to Buffy, that not only meant she could use her Slayer strength, but also throw a mean fireball or some other kind of magic.
Or Willow managing to raise a hell demon, and then suck all of the magic out of her, except for the magic that Giles empowered her with, and her and Buffy battle the demon, of course this demon would have to be about 50ft tall!!!
Anyhoo, it was a bit of an anti-climax to the finale, but I guess after 6 years they had to try something different.
Squishy
quote:
Originally posted by Stu:
Does anybody else think the whole Willow thing was a bit of a Cop Out? After everyone else trying to reason with her, telling her that this wasn’t what Tara would have would have wanted, and it was Xander saying “I love you” that changed her mind? I just think that after the big buid up they gave it,it was a bit anti-climactic. Anybody agree/disagree?
Disagree. Completely. One of the main themes of this season has been that you have to be able to depend on others — that no one exists in a vacuum. Buffy looks for companionship with Spike because she feels completely alone, while simultaneously isolating Dawn (who, in turn, looks for attention and support with sometimes unfortunate results). Giles leaves, in order to make Buffy stand on her own two feet, but returns knowing that he was probably wrong, that knowing when to ask for help is sometimes the most important and adult decision one can make. Willow loses Tara, and seeks to replace her with Amy, and the Willow/Tara split also leaves Dawn with fewer people to turn to. Xander leaves Anya, fearful of what the future might bring, and neither one of them can handle it, with Anya turning to Spike (who has been pushed away by Buffy). The whole dynamic of this season is based on the importance of family — whether it’s one you’re born with or one you choose — and how, without that web of dependence and love, it’s easy to fall. For Willow to have been stopped with some huge magical event, or something like that, would have rendered the whole thematic buildup of this season irrelevent. The only way it could have been stopped is with Willow realizing that she needs the Scoobies as much as they need her, and with Xander being her lifelong friend, it only makes sense that it would be him that would go the distance and try to save her at risk of his own life. It may not have been action-packed, but it was emotionally dead-on.
–Aleck
I agree with Aleck. Completely. I would just supplement his observations with the suggestion that season 4 was about the emotional and power vaccuum created by the death of the mother and absense of Giles on Buffy’s own death. So whilst many people have complained that this season has tended to lack direction, focus or emphasis, I would urge that its wayward approach was grounded in the breakdown in emotional interdependence and resulting dis/orientation.. Consequently, the Big Bad was primarilly an internal threat along interesecting lines – not something projected onto some demon who wants to take on the world or collapse the border between moral worlds. The moral terrain was itself thrown into question and mapped out according to a vaccuum that no one could properly thrive in (scoobies) and others could take advantage of (trioka). The supernatural had its basis in the natural, and needed to follow a natural turn of events. The ending, then, was the culmination of an internal problematic, and needed to be resolved accordingly.
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]
quote:
Originally posted by Bekka:
i did think the whole i love you thing was pushing it but it does raise questions1. will willow & xander get together
2. if yes how are the gonna explain the whole willow being a lesbian thing (bi or just loved tara?)
3. how will anya react
I think you’re taking the whole “I love you” thing in the wrong way. Willow and Xander have already done the getting together thing, and it didn’t work. They’ve known each other since kindergarten, they’re each other’s best friends. Of course they love each other. Xander has said that he loves Buffy, and I think he’s gotten far past the romantic infatuation stage. It’s like I said: they’re a family, and part of what this season was about was recognizing that those ties are important.
And if Willow *does* end up getting together with Xander (judging from Anya’s reaction to finding out that Xander saved the world, I think that her and Xander’s relationship will begin again), I don’t think there’s really going to be a huge problem with “explaining” Tara. Sexuality is a very fluid thing, and there are few people who identify as homosexual who haven’t had sexual experiences or even very emotionally powerful relationships with the opposite sex. Or, like you said, she could just identify herself as being bi. But I don’t think that’s going to happen. The actions of the Scoobies in the closing scenes of the finale were all structured to emphasize the familial bonds between them, rather than hint at romance (with Anya being a possible exception, as her admiring look hinting that her bond with Xander, being romantic in nature, would be reestablished).–Aleck
I am with those who liked the finale. And. really, I thought that was the only way to resolve the situation if Willow are to remain one of the good guys (or become one of the good guys again, depends on how impressed were you with the whole Warren-flailing experience). She had to stop herself, not be stopped by force or magic. So, cool.
What did make me feel slightly ripped off was Buffy’s part in season finale, i.e. the total lack of it. Basically, she got to fall into a pit and fight some rootmonsters! And that’s our hero?
Seriously, though, don’t you love how every season finale on Buffy is a big emotional revelation? It’s never just “pummel the monster”, the hight point of it is always about coming to terms with your fate, or ‘graduating’ from childhood, or learning that teamed up with your friends you make an unstoppable superslayer, or discovering that when there is no friends or weapons around, that’s left is “Me.” (love that bit!) Why or why can’t we have season finales like that on “Angel”?
And, also. Have you noticed that Xander more or less saves the day in every single season finale???
As for Willow being a lesbian an all that – remember Oz, anyone?i did think the whole i love you thing was pushing it but it does raise questions
1. will willow & xander get together
2. if yes how are the gonna explain the whole willow being a lesbian thing (bi or just loved tara?)
3. how will anya react
I thought the finale was very fine. As for Xander’s love being the thing which stopped Willow, it was the only answer. His love for her is the purest thing in her life. He is the brother she never had, the boyfriend she yearned for until Oz came along and the one constant in her universe. As for it becoming sexual, I hope they don’t follow that possible thread. Somehow, I think it would corrupt something truly special, the love one person can have for another, a love on a different plain than good old canrnal love. It was wonderful to see Anthony Stewart Head again too. I really miss Giles and I always enjoy seeing a side other than the stuffy bookworm he did so well. This episode was very satisfying on a bunch of levels for me. I was sorry to see Tara killed and I liked the vengeance Willow wreaked on that puke who killed her. He was a singularly sick pervert and would never have stopped his evil ways. Good riddance!!
And yet, for all the heartache and hassles that the scoobie gang have been going through, one of the best scenes of the finale was when Buffy explained to Giles what had happened to them while he’d been away!
I couldn’t help laughing too
I could just imagine myself doing the same thing in Giles’ position. It was a great scene!I also like to see Xander win-out for a change. He seems like one of the strongest characters in the gang. He may have no ‘special skills’ but he is one of the few members who can really be counted on.
[ 09-06-2002: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]
quote:
Originally posted by SadGeezer:
And yet, for all the heartache and hassles that the scoobie gang have been going through, one of the best scenes of the finale was when Buffy explained to Giles what had happened to them while he’d been away!I couldn’t help laughing too
I could just imagine myself doing the same thing in Giles’ position. It was a great scene!I also like to see Xander win-out for a change. He seems like one of the strongest characters in the gang. He may have no ‘special skills’ but he is one of the few members who can really be counted on.
[ 09-06-2002: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]
I thought the laughing scene with Giles was hilarious as well, it seemed to say that he can’t leave them alone for 5 minutes before they screw everything up!
I guess Giles thought he might be coming back to face just Willow, but to have Buffy tell about everything else seemed to make him think how he’d made a mistake in the first place by leaving, so maybe the laughter was also because he realised just how much he was really needed.
In another way it was Buffy poking fun at itself, Giles laughing about things that could only ever happen in a fantasy television series, nice little twist and funny too.
But it wasn’t the reaction you’d expect from Giles, which just made it even funnier, one good thing about Whedon is that he is the master of surprise and wit.
Squishy i personally cannot help but feel that this isn’t the end of the Willow thing. something very powerful took a hold of her in a moment of weakness, and it was the power of love that defeated it…for now. after all, it does appear that the darkness was purely a manifestation of her grief and anger over Tara’s death. But what if it wasn’t? it all happened a little too quickly for me. I know the point about the scoobies needing each other has been proved which may well have been the point of this season- but Willow now faces a long and difficult journey and will be fragile for quite some time. she might not be taking the drug, but what if it tries to take her?? I hope you can understand what i’m trying to say…
(coming up with really crappy ideas seems to be a habit of mine!!!)[ 09-06-2002: Message edited by: snooklepie ]
i didnt see the begining of the series, but i have one question
willow was able to raise buffy, why didnt she bring back tara?
if this has already been explained sorry
quote:
Originally posted by Bekka:
i didnt see the begining of the series, but i have one questionwillow was able to raise buffy, why didnt she bring back tara?
if this has already been explained sorry
It’s kind of convoluted, and I don’t think it was adequately explained, but apparantly it wasn’t Buffy’s time to die (she took Dawn’s place), and she died via supernatural means. Tara’s death didn’t fit these prerequisites, and so the being Willow called upon wouldn’t raise her.
–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by Bekka:
i didnt see the begining of the series, but i have one questionwillow was able to raise buffy, why didnt she bring back tara?
if this has already been explained sorry
It was a one time deal, there was only one thing that could bring Buffy back…the Urn of Osiris, unfortunately that got smashed halfway through the ritual by demon bikers, so there was no way that it could be performed again.
Buffy came back, but not quite the Buffy as she was before, although I’ve failed to notice any real change aside from boinking Spike.
Also Buffy died in supernatural circumstances and it wasn’t her that was supposed to die (even though the first slayer obviously knew), Tara died under human/natural laws, so that was another reason why Willow was refused when she demanded Tara be brought back.
Squishy quote:
Originally posted by Squishy:
Buffy came back, but not quite the Buffy as she was before, although I’ve failed to notice any real change aside from boinking Spike.
It’s a purely physical thing, and I’m not talking about boinking Spike.
Tara pointed out that the only thing that had changed about Buffy was that her physicality had been altered slightly on a molecular level. It wasn’t enough to really make any difference except that it allowed her to slip through Spike’s radar. She’s still human, she didn’t come back “wrong,” as Spike said, but something about her is just off enough to cause Spike’s chip’s presets to not recognize her.–Aleck
quote:
Originally posted by Aleck:
It’s a purely physical thing, and I’m not talking about boinking Spike.
Tara pointed out that the only thing that had changed about Buffy was that her physicality had been altered slightly on a molecular level. It wasn’t enough to really make any difference except that it allowed her to slip through Spike’s radar. She’s still human, she didn’t come back “wrong,” as Spike said, but something about her is just off enough to cause Spike’s chip’s presets to not recognize her.–Aleck
Ol’ Spikey had her on the ropes there for a bit, but she did feel something was not quite right but dismissed it eventually as
Tara convinced her otherwise, and to some extent Spike’s manipulation also added to her belief there was nothing really wrong.
Yet it wouldn’t surprise me if Whedon had something planned as a result of the botched resurrection, he never seems to let something like that go for too long.
Squishy OK WHAT THE FLIP IS GOING ON!!!!!!!!!!
OK LET ME GET THIS STRAT
>BUFFY LEVES POOR OLD SPIKE OUT IN THE COLD
> TARA DIES!? HOW?
>XANDER LEVES ANYA AND TELLS HARTBROKEN WILLOW THAT HE LOVES HER[ABOUT FLIPPEN TIME THOSE TWO GOT THE ACT TOGETHER]
>GYLES COMES BACK[YAHOO!!!!!!!].
>ANYA GETS TOGHTER WITH SPIKE
FRIST OFF SPIKE AND BUFFY SHOULD NOT BE TOGHER TO BEGIN WITH.WHAT I THINK SHOULD HAPPEN IS THIS:BUFFY BECOMES A VAMPIRE SPIKE STAKES HER A NEW GUY SHOULD COME ON AND GETS ANYA XANDER AND WILLOW GET MARRIED SPIKE PROTECTS DAWN AND SUNNYDALE
MEANWHILE FAITH GETS PROROLED AND HER PORROLE
OFFICER TURNS OUT TO BE A NEW WACTHER AND ASIGNS FAITH TO SUNNY DALE
That’s the fourth time I’ve heard that
(Tired sigh.)
Poor me.”Stu” wrote:Does anybody else think the whole Willow thing was a bit of a Cop Out? After everyone else trying to reason with her, telling her that this wasn’t what Tara would have would have wanted, and it was Xander saying “I love you” that changed her mind? I just think that after the big buid up they gave it,it was a bit anti-climactic. Anybody agree/disagree?
I thought that the scene was wonderfully done. A strong contrast to the beat-them-up Buffy.
Just wondering has anyone noticed that evilWillow wanted to destroy the world with an ancient Satanic temple 😈 and the only thing that stopped her was the power of love by a kind gentle carpenter? 😀
Beebop -bel wrote:”Stu” wrote:Does anybody else think the whole Willow thing was a bit of a Cop Out? After everyone else trying to reason with her, telling her that this wasn’t what Tara would have would have wanted, and it was Xander saying “I love you” that changed her mind? I just think that after the big buid up they gave it,it was a bit anti-climactic. Anybody agree/disagree?
I thought that the scene was wonderfully done. A strong contrast to the beat-them-up Buffy.
Just wondering has anyone noticed that evilWillow wanted to destroy the world with an ancient Satanic temple 😈 and the only thing that stopped her was the power of love by a kind gentle carpenter? :D[/quote]
Ha,ha, Xander is the second coming, not how I imagined Jesus to return, but Xander is a really good laugh, so I’m happy!!!
ADM
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