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Yeah I know,
But we shouldn’t dance around the subject. If we were all in the pub at the moment, what would we be talking about?
So, I thought I’d open the discussion (just in case some of you didn’t post because you were worried about being accused of being a troll!). We may be into sci fi, but we also care about stuff!
My thoughts are:
[list]War bad (but justified).
France very bad – will be the ruination of the UN
Did I see the Danes in a press conference with the US Central Command?!
Spending six hours a day watching the news about the war, scared and worried about world peace and feeling generally depressed about it![/list]i have been wary about about posting this topic, like you said
But we shouldn’t dance around the subject. If we were all in the pub at the moment, what would we be talking about?
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i admit i have been dancing around wondering what to do cause i really did want to discuss this with my fellow Sadgeezers. but i have been a little reluctant after our past experience with the terrorism post. 🙁 there were alot of hurt feelings involved then and i really don’t want anyone hurt this time! i do hope that our members and guests will be respectful of each others opinions. 😀 remember everyone is entitled to their opinion and we encourage lively discussions here! 🙂 but we do not allow the peeps to bash each other here at Sadgeezer.com!
i will attempt to organize my thoughts and respond more in detail about the war on sunday. 😀 😀
thank you again Saddy for having the courage to broach this touchy subject and get the ball rolling for an honest and open discussion! 😀 😀 :D[/quote]
My thoughts have remained the same since Saddam reared his fat ugly head again, and that is that war was inevitable.
The anti-war brigade, as far as I’m concerned are all misguided cowards, for the best part they are not concerned about stopping war, they are more concerned in showing their anti-americanism.
One thought that has remained with me all along, if you strip away all the politics and the accusations, if you take away the fear and cowardice, you are left with one simple conclusion…Saddam Hussein is a threat to this world.
Unfortunately, this fact is lost amongst all the hatred that is poured America’s way, perhaps the American government does have an ulterior motive for this war, but who the hell cares, we all should be grateful that America is around to challenge the evil of Saddam, if there was no America then Saddam would have free rein to use weapons of mass destruction on any who oppose him, is anyone that naive to believe that Saddam will just stop researching nukes and other weapons when told to do so?
For the best part the people of the US and the UK are not stupid enough to think that if left alone Saddam would comply with world opinion or that of the UN.
People forget that his world is nothing like ours, he only answers to Allah, while we try diplomacy to resolve the issue, diplomacy is not part of that world, you need be a democratic state for it to exist, his is a tyranny…diplomacy and humanatarian ideals aren’t part of his world.
Sadly, we are left with only two options, such is the way of things, these options are diplomacy and war, diplomacy will only work amongst ourselves, it only works if the decisions of a country rest with many, in this case it rests with one man. Thus we are left with the grim reality that war is the only other option available, no one wants it, but in the end it is all that is left.
As for France, that country has no gratitude for the help it has received in the past, and I hope that if trouble reaches their borders again that they are left to deal with it by themselves, they deserve as much for their cowardly behaviour.
France and these anti-war protesters are made up of anti-americans, extremists and a large bulk of pro-Saddam supporters, they have no voice and no idea, they are all cowards.
I’d like to reassure our friends in the US that the people in the UK support your cause, of course we have a large number of idiots who don’t, as I’m sure the same is true in the US, but the majority is definitely standing by America’s side and are proud to do so.
To those that oppose this opinion, to them I say ‘look at the end goal’, forget your prejudices and your hatred, look at the root cause for this trouble (Saddam) and nothing else, can you honestly believe that this one man will do what you’d like him do?, do you really think that he won’t kill you and your families just because you believe in peace?, he hates all of us and once he has the capabilty do you think he will stop too listen to your cries then, he will have the power too kill in the masses and would be ready to use it, how are you going to stop him then…because more demonstrations or more diplomacy will not stop him.
ADMIm actually offened that you would acuse anti-war protesters of being cowards and suporting Sadam
i didnt protest myself but i dont suport the war at all. I think sadam should/must die but this is the wrong way to go about it.
Im sure there have been assasination atempts before but it was still a vable option.
there is no way that the bombings will help matters, if sadam hasent fled the country long before now he will have once the bombing started.
you have to remeber that this guy has at least 9 bodydoubles (he claims that there not alowed to talk but do you trust him)
even if sadam is killed in the war whats to stop his suporters and family using a bodydouble and staying hes alive and keeping power. We would have to kill everyone that has worked for hussains government in anyway, all his family and anyone that looks like him to be compeatley certain he is dead and that iraq can be converted to our ways.
The war will not work because there are to many obstcals and when we give up we will go back to being hated by everyone around the world for all the inocent civilan deaths.
What bothers me about it all, is that this war wont fix the miss- understandings or breed compassion. It’ll cause us to get all defensive. I thought I was fairly open-minded about the whole situation, I could see both sides and although A-DM is maybe too outspoken for my tastes, a ruthless dictator who murders so many people just shouldn’t be allowed to get away with it!
BUT, the US and UK and some of the other allies are really going to get it in the neck for this! Many Arab people who hate Saddam will no doubt rally around him because the allies (non-Arabs) are seen by most as the invader. No matter how much they tell everyone that they are not after the oil, or that they are not invaders, but liberators – non-Arabs (and I know I’m speaking too generally here) won’t believe it.
Whichever side we’re on, we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place with this. Leaving Saddam to continue with his atrocities and support terrorism and mass killing is a terrible solution. But war could be worse – it’s thought by many (including me) to be the last resort of the foolish.
I think everyone now preys for a swift conclusion before a peaceful resolution – not of the war, but the aftermath – can be sought. That will be the real test for all of us, because if it continues, there will just be more and more conflict.
I guess that’s what I’m most concerned about.
Am going to copy and paste what I typed in another forum for this post- will reply to the rest later – apologies if a tad disjointed :
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Mar 18th, 2003, 9:18pm »
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I have a feeling our leaders are privy to more information regarding the matter than can be divulged to the public without compromising intelligence sources within iraq. Although I have little confidence in Mr Bush, myself, I’m willing to trust the rest of the coalition regarding the evidence linking Iraq with terrorism and needing to do something about it. There has to be a particular reason why now and not last year or the year before is the time for action, but if action is neccessary, and other alternatives have been given ample oppotunity to take effect, action should be taken. Noone wants to say we are at war, and send servicemen into battle. Given the public pressue in the UK, I’m sure Mr Blair’s given the idea serious thought, and if despite public pressue, he’s still sticking to his guns, willing to defy the UN, lose members of his cabinet and risk his chances of reelection, the evidence for action against Iraq must be pretty huge. We elected these leaders- if we didn’t feel that they were responsible enough to be acting in out best interests, we shouldn’t have voted them in at the polling booths. The pros v the cons have probably been weighed up several times already by the people in the best position to judge it.The biggest crime people are guilty of is standing by and doing nothing despite the injustices they see every minute of every waking day.
As to the UN issue- the idea was so countries could get together and talk things over between themselves. A problem with the old League of Nations was that it had no army, or a way of enforcing its own rules- it relied on goodwill between its member states. In the end the bigger members of the League did what they wanted anyway. The UN is not too different. It could be years before a resolution is passed- can we afford to wait? Apparently our intelligence says no.
__________________________________________Mar 19th, 2003, 6:20pm »
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Does anyone remember the big security scare in the UK with the airports a few months ago, with hints it may have something to do with further terrorism attempts etc? You could see on Mr Blair’s face a sign of desperation at the time. Was the reason for that scare divulged?Maybe a twarted attempt (then again maybe not)- may be part of the reason we are backing America so passionately at this moment in time. Could be a knee jerk reaction, and a policy of better not dismiss evidence that doesn’t definitly link Iqaq with terrorism, but has a 60-70% risk instead of 100% risk desired by other nations before a resolution is passed.
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Mar 20th, 2003, 9:23pm »
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All it takes is a few unlucky confrontations to turn a short war into a long war. And if what you said about Iran is true who says they’re not covertly supporting Iraq equipment wise?Vietnam was fought against a supposedly inferior opponent equipment wise
Don’t take quick victory for granted. They’ve had over 10 years to prepare – the americans are probably not the only ones to have learnt from the last war
______________________________________________Mar 21st, 2003, 10:31pm »
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on Mar 21st, 2003, 10:23pm, Nevyn wrote:Another interesting point is , have you wondered what is going to happen when they don’t find any WMD’s ?Oh, they’ll find WMD when they win the war (whether it’s Iraqi or some surplus weapons planted by Coalition forces will be up for debate). Heck if I was responsible for a war and couldn’t find anything, I’d plant them whether a politician or a military man. On the other hand if I were French/German/anit-militant action, to save face, I’d spread rumours about WMDs being planted even if the Iraqis had them. The political fallout from this war’s looking to be quite big
Forgive me for being cynical, but as you said, the first casualty of war is truth. Let me also add, history is written bt the victors
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Mar 23rd, 2003, 11:37pm »——————————————————————————–
Is it just me, or is there simply too many reporters in the gulf etc. With the ‘tank cam’ et al being broadcast, isn’t war being glorified just a little too much?A -DM wrote:My thoughts have remained the same since Saddam reared his fat ugly head again, and that is that war was inevitable.
“The anti-war brigade, as far as I’m concerned are all misguided cowards, for the best part they are not concerned about stopping war, they are more concerned in showing their anti-americanism.”Think you’re taking liberties here
“People forget that his world is nothing like ours, he only answers to Allah, while we try diplomacy to resolve the issue, diplomacy is not part of that world, you need be a democratic state for it to exist, his is a tyranny…diplomacy and humanatarian ideals aren’t part of his world.”
Again – making assumptions- both on religion (which many people would take offence at- most muslims are peaceful) and about the man. Where’d the assumption that all muslims are fanatics come from? Do you believe everything the media tell you?
“As for France, that country has no gratitude for the help it has received in the past, and I hope that if trouble reaches their borders again that they are left to deal with it by themselves, they deserve as much for their cowardly behaviour.
France and these anti-war protesters are made up of anti-americans, extremists and a large bulk of pro-Saddam supporters, they have no voice and no idea, they are all cowards.”On the contrary, a lot of people are reluctant to go to war- it isn’t a game – many people need evidence before being prepared to inflict a terrible thing on another country, rather than just taking another person’s (who may have ulterior motives or may have recieved false intelligence) word for it.
I’d like to reassure our friends in the US that the people in the UK support your cause, of course we have a large number of idiots who don’t
Since when is it idiocy to think for yourself and wish to weigh up the facts presented to you? I’d argue it’s stupid not to do so.
To those that oppose this opinion, to them I say ‘look at the end goal’, forget your prejudices and your hatred, look at the root cause for this trouble (Saddam) and nothing else, can you honestly believe that this one man will do what you’d like him do?, do you really think that he won’t kill you and your families just because you believe in peace?, he hates all of us and once he has the capabilty do you think he will stop too listen to your cries then, he will have the power too kill in the masses and would be ready to use it, how are you going to stop him then…because more demonstrations or more diplomacy will not stop him.
ADMour troubles stem from the individual terrorist cells operating in our respective countries. Instead of targetting these (which is extremely difficult), we go for the static target, who couldn’t do as much damage. And if that’s the case, it’d be countries such as Iran and Algeria we’d be going after for setting up these cells (and if you want to get pedantic, in the cold war it was CIA which taught them how to do it). Evidence rather than libel please.
Great post, there, fluffy bunny. *applauds*
Ok, here’s the skinny.
Our world is at a crossroads. Throughout history many governments have called themselves Republic and Democratic. All of these, ALL OF THEM, are now called Empires.
There is no escaping this fact. In the United States we refer to Glorious Age of the United Kingdom as the British Empire. The Romans? A Republic more often than a despotic Emperor, yet it will forever be known as the Roman Empire.
A thousand years from now, regardless of what happens, the United States will one day be known as the American Empire. Many of you will read and doubt this, but we are not the authors of history.
As for this particular conflict? Many claim “Oil for Blood” yet don’t realize this is the most ignorant arguement at all. The United States REFUSES to drill in most of Alaska. The Oil output of Alaska dwarfs the output of Iraq, yet at this point in time, long before Iraq, our government agree’d it was cheaper to buy oil than to drill it and deal with environmental issues. Does this sound like a country desperate for oil? I could write pages and pages on this subject, but believe me, oil is the last thing on our minds.
What IS on Bush’s mind???
I don’t like this President. He is weak, and his policy is vague. But his decision to attack Iraq was not only justifiable, but necessity.
Look at the coalition. A group of 30+ nobody countries sprinkled with our brother allies like the UK, and Australia. Other than that its a whos whos of nobodies. Or is it?
These countries in our coalition stand at a crossroads between becoming an Iraq, a North Korea, or becoming democratic, and joining the modern world of freedom. We are setting an example that NO country will be allowed to hold the world hostage with nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction.
Does Iraq have these weapons? No probably not, but North Korea does. And now they hold Japan and South Korea hostage. One day North Korea will nuke someone. It’s not a question of if, just when. And when this happens the world will finally wake up to its responsibility. But until that day it falls upon those who were pulled out of their comfortable isolation to save the world once again 58 years later due to the failure of the system we created (UN).
I feel terrible for the majority of Iraqi people. The people of the inner-city are modern, well thinking, and they care about the world. However the rest are animals, who take pleasure in the torture of the weak as noted by the lovely pictures of our young woman and men captured and many murdered in custody. These were not combat troops, these were supply engineers, simply bringing meals and ammunition to the front lines. Many were shot point blank in the forehead. Others had their genitalia displayed, showing the lack of manhood America has.
Many people in this world are animals, still stuck in an age where you beat your fellow man over the head for food and wealth, and rape the weak women when emotion dictates. These people will be educated or systematically wiped out, this is the rule of modern imperialism. And I for one want a unified world in which people like this are only talked about in the history books. It’s not an easy path at all, but one we must take or face extinction in the long run as our world slowly dies.
As for France Ill say this. Im ashamed to be descened from the same Germanic tribes that spawned a race of cowards. Im even more ashamed to use this as a blanket for the French people, but the days of The Resistance are long gone. The French have degenerated into a bickering, sly race willing to sell technology to the highest bidder. They have committed countless atrocities, beginning with the Ardennes(sp) in which they ignored the UNs demand to stop, the first such country to do so in the history of the UN.
Today they sell electronics to Iraq for missile and demolitions. The same weapons that kill our pilots (US/UK/Australia). What other secrets and technology have the French sold the Iraqi regime that tortures its people, and hangs menstrating woman by their feet as punishment? We will soon find out. This is a country that has proliferated more nuclear weapons in the last fifteen years than the world combined. They now have the third highest amount, and will soon be number one as the Russians and Americans continue to disarm.
Ahh the Russians. Lets just say they are done yet as an Empire themselves. Vladimir Putin is a genius, and I fear him greatly. But he is also a rational man and loving father and husband. I cannot say the same of the leader of North Korea, but I digress. Putin has the unenviable task of rebuilding Mother Russia. This requires a lot of dirty work, and surprise surprise, the other country most objecting to this war is also selling them arms, inclulding anti-tank missiles. We will have to wait for Baghdad to find how many lives the Russians will take from us in this war.
The end result is that war sucks. But as a race (Humanity) we have only one major immediate goal left, and one permanent goal. Our immediate goal is peace, our permanent one is humanity itself. One day we will have to leave this planet, there is no denying this, Earth is finite. But its timeline is to be determained by those with will and power not those tiny dictators willing to build just one nuclear weapon so they can go down in history as the one to end humanity for all time. For those that don’t believe anyone could be so insane, I invite you to read upon Mr. Kim in North Korea, as well as Mr. Hussein and his children. Spend just a few minutes researching their atrocities and tell me Isolation is good enough.
Lastly, Im not inhuman. Id rather just live in a world where everyone says “What the hell is war?” and my heart breaks when I read about the two British pilots slain by friendly fire. But this is a hard necessity, one that we all have to bear and I for one feel the majority of the world is up for it. And if not, necessity will always take over, and on the day Kim nukes South Korea or Japan, the world will once again turn to the Modern World, countries like Britain and America to lead them in confronting these threats. In the interim they will see us as Imperialistic.
Okay this is getting too long, so one last thing I want to say.
Protesters. These people make me a little sick. They want to help by being socially disruptive. If you really want to help, stop stepping over the homeless to scream “NO BLOOD FOR OIL” instead put down that sign and give your fellow man a coin or better yet buy him or her a nice meal, and get to know them. They dont understand that’s what were doing in Iraq. And they are the type of people not willing to do it themself, and the first to cry for help when invaders come killing their children and raping their woman. To me its the ultimate in irony, to have the luxury to preach about this war, yet not realize where that right came from.
Forgive me if Im a bit longwinded and incoherent at times, its just in times like this I feel many miss the ultimate long range point, and I doubt I articulated it well here. =) Just stay safe everyone including those Iraqis that yearn for peace and prosperity, you will get it soon but there’s much work to be done.
I did not want to read the posts before posting myself I was afraid it would bias me. Now that I have just a few things I want to address personally.
Where does the money come from? It comes from governments. I read that people want proof. If you want proof it’s easy, go out there and see it with your own eyes. I’ve been to the West Bank twelve times in my life. I’ve seen with my own eyes the smoking corpses peel from the seats of a bus. Ive seen families of these suicide bombers now finally eating, but heartbroken and blaming Israel for the death of their son. When asked, they claim they were compensated by the Palestinian government, through Saddam Hussein. Were they lied to? It’s from their own mouth. Just because a CNN reporter wasent in the building doesent mean it never happened. It’s like the war you’re watching on TV that say “Another Baghdad attack!” yet its no where near Baghdad, it’d be like attacking Pomona and claiming LA was hit. The news lies to you more than your government, they go live with stories that just arent true, and fill in details when none are available. This has been proven more time and time again than actual government lying.
Many of these people who are hailed by the Modern World, to have great resolve for willing to trade their life for a bus full of students, dont. They are simply starving and jobless, and being a soldier, or a suicide bomber is like hitting the jackpot for some of these families. By creating jobs, and stable governments we help to end this cycle. It will never be possible to end it entirely, as there will always be those people ignorant enough or brainwashed enough to think that innocent death will make them heroes.
To wait until airplanes crash into your home buildings, is folly. The first time the continental United States was attacked so massivly was on 9/11/01. It had never happened to such a degree before at a single moment. To allow this to happen again would be sin. It’s not until your freedom has been taken, and the every day fear of invaders and murderers and worse is constantly on your mind that you’ll begin to understand why we must activly protect it. Until then people will abuse democracy by heading to the streets to protest something they really dont know anything about one way or another. They simply rely on their fantastic innate sense of the value of human life, and I do applaud that sentiment, however misplaced.
As this terrible war unfolds many secrets will be revealed, the least of which will be that Saddam funded major terrorist organizations.
Read again my previous post. I’ll talk about it again here. Bush’s policy is VAGUE. My gripe if I have one at all, is that we are only doing what were “Allowed” to. The sad truth is, powerful people within the Saudi government as well as many ‘friendly’ governments also fund terrorism. Yet we cannot touch them due to the sentiment “You hate Islam, all Arabs!” and many of the complaints Im reading about this war just support that fact. And sadly these people have never gone beyond CNN to find the truth about these regimes, not just Iraq, but Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemin, Jordan. Unfortunatly what all these countries have in common is their large Muslim populations. They have done a fantastic job at preventing us from ever stopping this funding entirely by reaching into your heart and telling you white people hate arabs and want their oil. One day these countries will have nuclear weapons, and they wont be so secretive about their hatred of you.
Oil has nothing to do with anything. But enough said, I’m sure by now I have ostracized myself sufficiently =)
Well for me (a US citizen) this war appears to be unjustified– since we have been able to bomb selected targets in Iraq for years, and they have been under a no-fly zone. Why now? Why this big invasion? I don’t believe that GWB wants to liberate the children of iraq out of the goodness of his heart and not much evidence has been shown that Sadaam (awful though he is) was about to embark on a new agressive assault on some other country. Invading another country should be a last resort. Should we take over the entire chunks of the third world because many goverments in africa and other parts of the middle east and asia are doing a bad job running their countries??? Do we intend to rebuild Iraq? Can we really afford it? Have we rebuilt Afganistan– aren’t we accused of sticking the UN with most of the bill for that? I think that invading a country to get rid of a leader that we don’t like is decadent, and opens the door to other countries making pre-emptive strikes (it has been pointed out that the Japanese considered pearl harbor to be a pre-emptive strike). This is all just my opinion and is not meant to be insulting– i just have many questions and misgivings about this drastic action.
Golly! Saddam Hussein is such an awful man! Gee whiz! How did such a bad man come into power? And why are the French, Germans, and Russians so eager to help him? And why did those strange Israelis bomb that nuclear reactor that the French built for Iraq? Why didn’t we retaliate against the Israelis when we were giving so much to Saddam to fight those evil Iranians?
Who put Saddam in charge in the first place? I’ve seen few people talk about his history in any depth. It’s as if he suddenly materialized in 1990 and suddenly became a menace.
”fluffy wrote:A -DM wrote:My thoughts have remained the same since Saddam reared his fat ugly head again, and that is that war was inevitable.
“The anti-war brigade, as far as I’m concerned are all misguided cowards, for the best part they are not concerned about stopping war, they are more concerned in showing their anti-americanism.”Think you’re taking liberties here
**ADM: Not at all, most of the peaceful demo’s are a mix of those who geniunely wish too stop war and those who are against the US, I call them cowards because at the end of the day they do not offer a solution, they do not and cannot offer a solution, and they will be the ones who will berate our troops for their actions, too me that is cowardly.
“People forget that his world is nothing like ours, he only answers to Allah, while we try diplomacy to resolve the issue, diplomacy is not part of that world, you need be a democratic state for it to exist, his is a tyranny…diplomacy and humanatarian ideals aren’t part of his world.”
Again – making assumptions- both on religion (which many people would take offence at- most muslims are peaceful) and about the man. Where’d the assumption that all muslims are fanatics come from? Do you believe everything the media tell you?
**ADM: If you read that carefully you would realise I am speaking of one man’s world (Saddam) and the country he lives in, it is not an assumption it is a fact, the people of Iraq do not pose the threat, but they do not live in a democracy, they live live in a tyranny. Now I would really like to know how you infer that I meant the muslim world as a whole?, Muslims are a peaceful people and I have never questioned that.
“As for France, that country has no gratitude for the help it has received in the past, and I hope that if trouble reaches their borders again that they are left to deal with it by themselves, they deserve as much for their cowardly behaviour.
France and these anti-war protesters are made up of anti-americans, extremists and a large bulk of pro-Saddam supporters, they have no voice and no idea, they are all cowards.”On the contrary, a lot of people are reluctant to go to war- it isn’t a game – many people need evidence before being prepared to inflict a terrible thing on another country, rather than just taking another person’s (who may have ulterior motives or may have recieved false intelligence) word for it.
**ADM: That’s absolute rubbish and you know it, the evidence comes from the first Iraqi war, how long are you prepared to seek this evidence, while you and other’s stall, are you stupid enough believe that during this time Saddam would not continue too obtain and possibly deploy weapons of mass destruction?
And when the evidence you seek surfaces what then?, same result…War, the evidence has already been given, the fact that plans, documents and other evidence has been verified is enough to show that Saddam was and still is lying and will continue to do so, but that is still not enough for you is it, you are still wanting to believe that somehow Saddam will conform to UN law, and too believe that he will is just folly, you apply the principles of what you believe to be a peaceful resolution to a man that doesn’t think or feel the same way you do. Like I said he has his own agenda and works in a way that is contrary too international law, surely the fact that he flouts the Geneva convention gives you enough evidence of that, the barbaric treatment of those US POW’s goes too show how your mindset and ideals simply do not apply to Mr Hussein.
The evidence of the differences between you and him are highlighted by T.V, what will it take for you too realise that diplomacy and UN inspections will not stop or hinder him, your beliefs of a peaceful outcome just don’t work in this instance, as much as you’d like too believe it would, it doesn’t, and unfortunately you, like many others are prone to think that in a civilised world a civilised outcome would work, yet your civilised approach counts for nothing when the recipient doesn’t feel the same way.I’d like to reassure our friends in the US that the people in the UK support your cause, of course we have a large number of idiots who don’t
Since when is it idiocy to think for yourself and wish to weigh up the facts presented to you? I’d argue it’s stupid not to do so.
**ADM:The facts have been presented and anyone can say war is never good, but these facts should bring you to one conclusion, that the UN inspectors would never have acheived what they set out to do, even after all the time spent in trying too disarm him he would still continue, the UN inpectors can’t watch over a country that large indefinitely, hell they can’t even find all the evidence they needed if they spent years doing it, Saddam would simply keep moving all the pieces.
And again when the evidence is enough too satisfy you what then?, do you actually believe that the UN could hit Iraq any harder through trade restrictions than it is currently doing?, do you think that the UN could use a stronger military action other than is currently being taken.
Even as we speak Saddam continues to fight, the result would’ve been the same if the UN continued with inspections, except the war would’ve been kept on hold for months or years while Saddam continues to stockpile and produce weapons, and essentially a bigger threat is posed than the one we face now, you will look back and think what could’ve been if we had acted, while Saddam has the capability to deploy nukes and other weapons, is that truly a risk worth taking?, your moral beliefs will serve you no good when those you love die in agony from an attack that Saddam is behind.
It amazes me how many people think that not confronting Saddam will result in more peaceful world, I look around at the people who have pro-Saddam arguments, these same people were children when war last came to the gulf and they don’t know of the lies and deceit that was spun by this man then, they were too young too realise just how dangerous he was even then, well I wasn’t an idealistic youngster back then (I was 21), I saw what this man is capable of and I know he will never do as the anti-war brigade wishes him to do.To those that oppose this opinion, to them I say ‘look at the end goal’, forget your prejudices and your hatred, look at the root cause for this trouble (Saddam) and nothing else, can you honestly believe that this one man will do what you’d like him do?, do you really think that he won’t kill you and your families just because you believe in peace?, he hates all of us and once he has the capabilty do you think he will stop too listen to your cries then, he will have the power too kill in the masses and would be ready to use it, how are you going to stop him then…because more demonstrations or more diplomacy will not stop him.
ADMour troubles stem from the individual terrorist cells operating in our respective countries. Instead of targetting these (which is extremely difficult), we go for the static target, who couldn’t do as much damage. And if that’s the case, it’d be countries such as Iran and Algeria we’d be going after for setting up these cells (and if you want to get pedantic, in the cold war it was CIA which taught them how to do it). Evidence rather than libel please.[/quote]
**ADM:Even though terrorism is something that Saddam could realistically support, this is not the sole reason for taking him out, yes it’s harder to go for the cells, but the thinking is that the supply of weapons would need to come from a large enough organisation such as the Iraqi regime, with Iraq comes the possibility that should Saddam be successful in devoloping weapons of mass destruction (which he already has), comes the realisation that terrorists could get their hands on them, better for Iraq to have a regime that would not do that don’t you think?
THe evidence you seek would cost us dearly, when he is finally found out what do you think he will do, leave the country willingly?, or attack the aggressors with the weapons he has time to manufacture in the time it has taken to seek out this evidence?
What happens when you have this evidence and a country like France still refuses to sanction any action against Saddam?
I can’t offer any evidence to validate my opinion, but at the end of the day I do know that Saddam toys with us and preys upon our fears and hopes for a more peaceful outcome, and I do know he does this too buy himself time, what you need to ask yourself is what is he going to do with this time?
I would rather we act now and be decisive in our resolve than wait and live with a growing anxiety of an uncertain future, this action may cost hundreds or even thousands of lives, but when the risk is that waiting may eventually cost millions of lives I know we have done the right thing, we waited in WW2 and it cost the world dear, I don’t think that the world should ever run that risk again.But I say to you, offer me another solution, show me another way, think hard about who is being dealt with here and see if you can offer me another solution, forget the anti-american rhetoric, forget the politics, forget about your own personal feelings, offer me an objective and viable solution that is not going to spill a drop of human blood.
ADM
Thx for your thinking out your last post ADM. I’m for this war, as long as it’s done for the right reasons and intentions. Sorry, but I don’t think the moral high ground “we’re better than them” etc won’t work with me- if you try that, it can be pointed out that every country in the world has committed it’s share of atrocities at one time or other.
Going in to help the Kurds is not a reason that’ll wash with me- Saddam does not consider the Kurds as Iraqi in the same way that neither Iran or Turkey, both allies in the first gulf war and tentative ones in the second, consider their kurdish people Iranian or Turkish. In the first gulf war American bombers were not allowed to fly raiding missions at certain times because Turkey were running bombing raids on their own Kurdish minority. It is not justifiable to any extent but at the same time no-one in Iraq considers them Iraqi, one of many examples of racial prejudice throughout the world. If all this was ignored in the 1st war, how can it be a validation for a second? The motives for this war will most likely not be revealed in the near future, and we can only hope that the intentions of our leaders are noble ones.
Just because France doesn’t agree with the Coalition’s way of doing things doesn’t automatically make them cowards. If you feel someone gets it wrong you don’t roll over and agree with them – ok I’d say it was rash of them to threaten to veto any descision without hearing it out first, but still France, Germany and Russia are simply doing what they feel is right from their perspective. We do not know what evidence is out there, and whether the coalition or the french did the right thing regarding it- how can we as the public interpret it if we haven’t seen it. If we can’t interpret it, who are we to judge and subsequently ostracize? I guess it’ll be for the historians to debate when the evidence is revealed
Another reason is political- if we cajole and threaten, and don’t do anything, we’ll be seen as paper tigers and will be ignored the next time we need to send a warning
”Bekka” wrote:Im actually offened that you would acuse anti-war protesters of being cowards and suporting Sadam
**What you don’t seem to understand is that these rallies are the perfect opportunities for extremists, fundamentalists, Anti-Americans and supporters of communism to join in, these people are using this as an excuse to air their views.
There is a large element of Pro-Saddam supporters whether you choose to believe it or not, perhaps the cowards does not apply too all, but it does too many.i didnt protest myself but i dont suport the war at all. I think sadam should/must die but this is the wrong way to go about it.
**And how do you propose we do that?, if it was a simple case of special forces going in and assassinating Saddam don’t think they would’ve have done it already?
There is no chance of anyone close to him taking him out, he only allows those who have been vetted or family around him, no one is daring enough to take a shot at him, not only for fear of what might happen to them but also their families.Im sure there have been assasination atempts before but it was still a vable option.
**Not it’s not, I’m sorry, but that really is wishful thinking, he has had years to ensure that an assassin could not get near him, and US intelligence knows this only too well, as you have said yourself he goes too great length’s to ensure his personal safety, employing numerous lookalikes and is likely never to actually make public appearances.
there is no way that the bombings will help matters, if sadam hasent fled the country long before now he will have once the bombing started.
**That’s not true, this operation is called ‘Operation Iraqi Freedom’ for the sole reason of liberating the Iraqi people of Saddam, whether we get him or not is secondary to ensuring the freedom of the Iraqi people.
The bombing is meant to take out strategic targets and Republican Guard to make sure that when Allied troops enter Baghdad a firefight does not ensue that will cost the lives of many Allied troops.
It is more likely that Saddam will have his escape route cut, but there is still every chance he can escape, but the whole point is that he will no longer have the power to threaten the world as he currently has now.
As for what happens after (i.e America’s supposed interest in Iraq oil) remains to be seen, I prefer to reserve judgement on that until the war is over, but it is highly unlikely that the US and the UK would be so blatantly obvious and upset the likes of Russia and China.you have to remeber that this guy has at least 9 bodydoubles (he claims that there not alowed to talk but do you trust him)
**Huh???
even if sadam is killed in the war whats to stop his suporters and family using a bodydouble and staying hes alive and keeping power. We would have to kill everyone that has worked for hussains government in anyway, all his family and anyone that looks like him to be compeatley certain he is dead and that iraq can be converted to our ways.
**He won’t keep power even if he is alive, the whole Iraqi regime is too be ousted when the war is won, I can’t see the US allowing Saddam to remain can you!?!
And no one is going to kill anyone, if Saddam is caught alive he will face a war tribunal as will his sons and others of the Iraqi high command…although it’s a bonus if he is killed during the war, although it is more likely he will go into exile.
And Iraq is not going to be converted to our ways, they will have a choice to elect who they choose without fear of being murdered for opposing Saddam, this will be the only change to Iraq, if too much change was instituted then the US risk a volatile response from other Arab states.The war will not work because there are to many obstcals and when we give up we will go back to being hated by everyone around the world for all the inocent civilan deaths.
**The war will work as the obstacles to be removed are Saddam and his cronies, peace and stability would eventually return to Iraq.
Although the long term effects of the Allied action is likely to make the Arab world hate the US even more, yet that is something that will not change regardless of the action taken in Iraq.
The US and the UK won’t give up as they have the superior firepower, the only danger posed is that the Iraqi people themselves do not wish for liberation, but it widely conceived that the majority wish to be rid of Saddam, there will be no doubt that small pockets of resistance will remain, but once a new government has been installed the country should become more stable.
As for civilian deaths, well in war it’s unavoidable, but it doesn’t help when the enemy purposefully uses it’s own people as human shields.
ADMWoW!
Some great arguments on both sides! Lots to think about and all was an excellent read.
After reading all that I find that I have more questions than answers! Especially after Flame’s post.
And yet, I remember when I was little, programmes about the holocaust and seeing comments by people that we shouldn’t ever forget what happened. Welp, I don’t think we have forgotten, unfortunately it hasn’t stopped either. Saddam shouldn’t have been allowed to get away with it, but then he is currently the most obvious mass murderer, we forget about Cambodia, Ruanda and others too easily.
I really hoped that in my lifetime, we’d have found a way to stop mass killing but if anything, it seems to be getting worse – or at least more open. Is it any wonder then that most of us are worried about the aftermath or our elected representatives become desperate?
One other thing that keeps niggling away in the back of my mind is that the Arab nations all seem against the coalition and primarily the US. Some of you have pointed out that it’s only a few terrorists that are responcible for these cowardly terrorist attacks but I’m not so sure? Arab societies (and peer pressure it seems) seemed openly (the peopel at least) supportive of say 9/11 and although they may hate Saddam they will support him against the US and it’s allies! Why is that?
And more importantly, why is it always OTHERS that have to deal with the likes of Saddam and the Taliban etc. Why are there few (if any) muslem countries involved or providing support) in stamping out terrorism directed at people other than themselves?
It seems to me that more moslems have died at the hands of Saddam than at the hands of the Isrealies and the US etc. Why do the Mouslim communities support him?
That’s not an attack on these communities, I just can’t understand why they never get involved themselves.
Hmmm. This post isn’t turning out the way I intended it. It maybe that my comfortable western lifestyle is so different from that of countries like Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iran that I can’t understand such mentality. I’ve just seen a news report where some mouslim countries are ganging up to condemn the war. The defensiveness in me says, “You ungreatful bastards! We’re doing your dirty work for you!”
”fluffy wrote:Thx for your thinking out your last post ADM. I’m for this war, as long as it’s done for the right reasons and intentions. Sorry, but I don’t think the moral high ground “we’re better than them” etc won’t work with me- if you try that, it can be pointed out that every country in the world has committed it’s share of atrocities at one time or other.
**I don’t believe we are any better morally than the Iraqi people, I do know we are morally correct when compared too the Iraqi regime.
The accusations being levelled America of helping Iraq at one time or another are unfair, when you consider that almost every power
in the western world has assisted Iraq at some stage, France, Germany, UK, America all have too accept blame for the position we find ourselves in now.Going in to help the Kurds is not a reason that’ll wash with me- Saddam does not consider the Kurds as Iraqi in the same way that neither Iran or Turkey, both allies in the first gulf war and tentative ones in the second, consider their kurdish people Iranian or Turkish. In the first gulf war American bombers were not allowed to fly raiding missions at certain times because Turkey were running bombing raids on their own Kurdish minority. It is not justifiable to any extent but at the same time no-one in Iraq considers them Iraqi, one of many examples of racial prejudice throughout the world. If all this was ignored in the 1st war, how can it be a validation for a second? The motives for this war will most likely not be revealed in the near future, and we can only hope that the intentions of our leaders are noble ones.
**Not so much going too help the kurds is the issue, it’s what has been tested on them that is, the use of banned weapons is a clear violation of international law, it’s a shame that the press choose to highlight the plight of the kurds as propaganda, but it does show that this man is quite willing too kill using these weapons, that alone is a clear indication of why this man needs to be removed.
Just because France doesn’t agree with the Coalition’s way of doing things doesn’t automatically make them cowards. If you feel someone gets it wrong you don’t roll over and agree with them – ok I’d say it was rash of them to threaten to veto any descision without hearing it out first, but still France, Germany and Russia are simply doing what they feel is right from their perspective. We do not know what evidence is out there, and whether the coalition or the french did the right thing regarding it- how can we as the public interpret it if we haven’t seen it. If we can’t interpret it, who are we to judge and subsequently ostracize? I guess it’ll be for the historians to debate when the evidence is revealed
This still brings me back to the point for which my opinion is based, I am not interested in the feelings France has towards the US, whatever the reason all of us have to recognise that sooner or later Saddam Hussein is a timebomb waiting to go off, I can’t imagine that anyone is any doubt as to whether Saddam has the guile to attack whomever he chooses should he obtain weapons of mass destruction or pass them on to someone who is willing to do it for him.
For this reason alone Saddam needs to be taken to task no matter what the cost, and that is what it boils down to…the cost, well the cost is significantly reduced by the action taken now, I cannot see a solution that would allow us to live in peace whilst Saddam is in power and the longer he is left the more dangerous the threat.
France has failed to recognise this threat, and by vetoing anything that goes before the UN they have effectively endangered mankind, the way I see it is that if we didn’t act now would we regret it if we hadn’t later on, no one knows the answer to that, but I think most people have led themselves to believe that if Saddam is left alone he won’t harm us, that is wishful thinking. Yes it could turn bad by taking this action, but equally it could still turn bad if we did nothing, I would rather we died trying than die knowing we could have done something about it or at least tried too.
Whichever path you take will result in trouble somewhere down the line, we are on a dangerous path too oblivion, we cannot remove every threat, one will always pop up somewhere, but at least we can attempt to delay what may be inevitable and it may buy us some more time it may not, but again at least we tried, unfortunately Saddam has learned to live with sanctions, embago’s and restrictions, are diplomacy is wasted on him, our use of inspections just buy him more time, but the use of physical force brings the curtain down on him and buys the world a little more breathing space, and perhaps we can look to avoid such confrontation by arresting it before it get’s too the stage that Saddam has reached…a madman on the verge of the power of nuclear destruction.Another reason is political- if we cajole and threaten, and don’t do anything, we’ll be seen as paper tigers and will be ignored the next
time we need to send a warning**Exactly, nothing but death will stop Saddam, words are meaningless now and the message that is now sent to other would be madmen is that we will try too talk our way out of it, and the use of force will be less and less likely given the trouble that is caused because of it.
I imagine that the US and UK will find it nigh on impossible to tackle a threat like Saddam in the future, there will come a time when force will no longer be an option and when that time comes we will realise how much of a mistake we have made.
We still don’t live in a world where peace can flourish, we are in the 21st century yet wars as devastating as WW1 and WW2 will still happen, in fact we have not changed as a species, if anything we are more likely to take up arms than ever before, mainly because of the old sins of greed and jealousy.
We can’t rely on everyone in the world to show the restraint to not harm others no matter what the provocation, and the countries that wish for a better future cannot force their will on those who do wish to harm others, it is hoped that these countries will evolve to go beyond their hatred of others, but it is still a long, long way off, and until this planet can reach that goal then people like Saddam will always exist, and the fight to protect what we do have will never end.
ADMFluffy bunny and Lexxlurker have pretty much summed up my views on this topic. thanks guys! 😀 that means much less typing for me!:D i hate war and i do pray that the human race will someday acheive world peace. i do not see this happening in my lifetime or even my sons, but i hope my grandchildren will see at least the beginning of the process.
i do feel as though this war is necessary though. my heart cries out for the loved ones left with nothing but memories and pictures. but i was raised in a military family, my grandfather was a pilot in WWII, Korea and a advisor in Vietnam. more recently my little brother was in the Gulf war. any military person knows that it is possibly they may not make it back and they accept this risk with pride. i know it is of no comfort to the ones left behind but they should always respect the decision and be proud.
as for the anti-war protesters, i want to make my opinion very clear on this! they have the right to protest! as long as they are pure of heart in believing that this war is wrong. if they are using this chance to protest simply to show how much they hate America, Bush, ect… then i say that they are absolutely wrong!!! they need to find a different way of protesting and not use this legitamite protest as a forum for their hate. we all have freedom of speech but it comes with responsibility. in other words don’t confuse your hatred of America or Bush with anti-war sentiment. i did not vote for Bush, it is my personal opinion that he should not be in the White House because he did not win the popular vote. and the voting in Florida (where his brother was the govenor) was very hinky. but i would never use something as serious as a anti-war protest to voice my opinion about this. it is just wrong! i also think that it is wrong for people to bash these anti-war protesters whether they be actors, politicians or everyday people. again we have freedom of speech and when we try to stomp on one of our rights, whats next?!
whew! so much for not typing very much!
Playing devil’s advocate:
SadGeezer wrote:WoW!
One other thing that keeps niggling away in the back of my mind is that the Arab nations all seem against the coalition and primarily the US. Some of you have pointed out that it’s only a few terrorists that are responcible for these cowardly terrorist attacks but I’m not so sure? Arab societies (and peer pressure it seems) seemed openly (the peopel at least) supportive of say 9/11 and although they may hate Saddam they will support him against the US and it’s allies! Why is that?
A lot of them have major misgivings of Israel- a country right on their doorstep. Despite the infighting between those nations, they’re pretty much unified in their hatred for Israel who a lot of them feel has been able to get away with a lot of s**t that’s unacceptable to them due to America’s involvement and meddling in middle eastern matters. Funded by America to an amount of money in goods and military equipment greater than the combined support America offers to the rest of the world. The West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights. Israel even supposedly (need to double check this but if memory serves), surpasses even China in violation of UN human rights against its neighbours. A lot of them feel Palestine has been unfairly treated on several occasions. Religion is one of the reasons they back palestine, but noone in the region likes Israel.
The US bombing Iraq every few years seems a bit excessive and some may have misgivings over it.
That’s not an attack on these communities, I just can’t understand why they never get involved themselves.
Why should they? How would they benifit from a war? There is no surefire outcome, war leads to international condemnation . Besides- taking out Iraq wouldn’t solve the terrorist problem (look at the Iran/Iraq war – on another note, while you’re there look at the reasons for it). America is on the other side of the world, they’re right next door- counteroffensives etc could be very bloody- and of the major weapons of mass destruction supposedly there —->abundant chemical and biological agents (less likely to have nukes). Chemical and biological weapons are notoriously difficult to distibute over long distances, but local borders are easy.
I’ve just seen a news report where some mouslim countries are ganging up to condemn the war. The defensiveness in me says, “You ungreatful bastards! We’re doing your dirty work for you!”
Again, nothing is being done for their benifit, simply shifting the balance of power in the region, putting in governments sympathetic to the west. After Iraq, where next? One or 2 of the league will may be funding terrorism themselves and would at least start to sweat. Others think it’s a regional matter and the US should stay out of it.
First, off, let’s get one thing straight: I hate Saddam. Personally, I say we take that worthless bastard to the nearest tree and hang him.
However, I am also a Muslim, and in my Koran for one, it says that we are all descended from Adam and Hawa (Eve), and as a result, it makes both the Iraqis who are being killed, the Allied troops dying, hell, any human being my family. Distant ones yes, but family nonetheless. I am all for Saddam’s being deposed, but if it is through any way that punishes my family with death, then I cannot support it, no matter how noble it may seem. The ends never jusify the means, and as such I cannot support the war, no matter how much I want to. Why can’t the CIA just send over some agents for a ‘wet job’? Is that somehow less morally acceptable than sending hordes of people to kill other hordes of people with the same purpose in mind?
Besides, at the last count, the ratio of Israelis to Palestinians killed was 9:2. Disarmament, anyone? 🙁
”The wrote:First, off, let’s get one thing straight: I hate Saddam. Personally, I say we take that worthless B^$%^rd to the nearest tree and hang him.
However, I am also a Muslim, and in my Koran for one, it says that we are all descended from Adam and Hawa (Eve), and as a result, it makes both the Iraqis who are being killed, the Allied troops dying, hell, any human being my family. Distant ones yes, but family nonetheless. I am all for Saddam’s being deposed, but if it is through any way that punishes my family with death, then I cannot support it, no matter how noble it may seem. The ends never jusify the means, and as such I cannot support the war, no matter how much I want to. Why can’t the CIA just send over some agents for a ‘wet job’? Is that somehow less morally acceptable than sending hordes of people to kill other hordes of people with the same purpose in mind?
Besides, at the last count, the ratio of Israelis to Palestinians killed was 9:2. Disarmament, anyone? 🙁
Like many western people, I hope that the Islamic faith never reaches the conclusion that this is an attack on their religion, we have the same fears and the same wish to preserve human life, but some in the muslim community do not see it that way.
While you say that the Koran preaches that those being killed are our family, and the Koran, like the bible tells us that much of what we do today is not acceptable. Yet the nagging difference is that a small minority of muslims kill the family you speak of, and too add to this insult they choose to call it Jihad, surely this is abhorrent to a large majority of muslims, that the Koran can be used effectively as a propaganda weapon against it’s enemies, and on a larger scale we see many muslim countries with strong anti-american fervour in support of these fanatics, how can a book of peace lead them to follow this path?
I am not a believer of any god, which I feel puts me in a kind of neutral position when Islam and Christianity clash, yet all I see is a faith that is manipulated by extremists, they tell or quote of a passage from the Koran to reinforce what they do, and some without question will see the Koran as sending the message that the terrorists have put out as being just.
This is not an attack on Islam in any way, and for the best part it’s followers are peace loving, yet equally there is a large number that are cajoled in hating the US when told that their God demands it, in this instance religion is being used to power war and terror.
I guess what I’m saying is that it’s a two way street, the terrorists strike and hit innocent people hard, yet when we retaliate it is seen as an attack on the Muslim faith, if it were ever possible religion should stay out of wars.
Does it not shock you when a mass murderer goes live on T.V and effectively announces that his gripe against mankind is the will of God?, he is the biggest culprit of using the muslim faith to serve his own ends, sadly, for the best part he is successful in rallying muslims with his messages, but surely no true muslim can support a man who uses the Koran as a propaganda weapon.
ADMSlightly off topic, I always interpreted Jihad as spiritual with regards to defence of faith, (I’m not muslim, but had a read through the translation a few ys back)
Problem isn’t religion per se (I feel generally is a good thing) but extremism is- many say essentially the same thing. If someone argues that he is higher or that his religion is holier, it is proof that he has missed the very core of his faith.
Why can’t the CIA just send over some agents for a ‘wet job’?
That’s what I was thinking but
1) People been trying to do this for years, but it hasn’t worked- security is good, plus the use of body doubles (people surgically altered to look like Saddam, some against their will doesn’t help)
2) Even if he is killed, there are too many people who think in the same way as him in positions of power who would gladly take control. It’s not the man, but the regime that people want toppling.
I Imagine many of the Iraqi people aren’t too bothered who’s in charge, they just want to get on with their lives, so a revolution is too much to hope for.I get to make my own nuts!
First off, I don’t believe that President Bush is stupid. You don’t become the most powerful man in the world by being stupid. Although, I think the people that write his speeches are more than slightly stupid. Bush and his counterparts have made some pretty huge blunders during some very important announcements. Incidents like calling Germany and France the ‘old’ Europe was dumb…very dumb. There have been many other statements that have been extremely poorly worded and insulting towards other Countries whose only intention in the matter is to find a peaceful solution. These political blunders by the US does nothing to woe the public, and will only fuel growing discontent with the US’s foreign policy.
Now, I understand military procedure fairly well from growing up in somewhat of a military family. I believe that the U.S. and U.K. (whose secret services have always worked closely together) do have intelligence that they can’t share with the rest of the world, as it would jeopardise the source or sources of this information. I would be very surprised if the U.S. and the U.K. went to war and had nothing to show for it afterwards. Blair and Bush are politicians, and they would have to answer to their own voters as to why they sent in troops for nothing. The outcome will be the telling point. If they go to war and don’t find anything, then I think that Bush and Blair should face a war crimes tribunal. Of course, if they find even just one weapon of mass destruction, the U.S. and U.K. stance would be completely justified.
Thirdly, I think that the main problem lies with the U.S. foreign policy (not just Iraq, but on the whole middle east and Muslim world in particular) being viewed by the international community as somewhat jaded. I think Bush is skating on thin ice, and that if he was a little more aware of the rest of the world, he may find that he is not alone in his concerns.
I seem to get the impression from Bush that he views anything with a different view to him as un-American and confuses un-American with anti-American.
Fourthly, if the UN fails to come to some sort of agreement, I think it will be a huge failure for the UN. This is a real setback, as I believe the UN is the only way forward for the entire planet.
Still, I think we all have to wait and see. Hindsight can be an exact science. I guess the proof of the pudding would be in the eating. I think we all have to wait and see and then judge. We don’t know all the facts, and until we do, it’s all kind of pointless.
To end off…. I’d like to add this “Why of course the people don’t want war … But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship … Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.”
– Hermann Goering, at the Nuremberg Trials.
***********************************
Sound familiar? Kind of relevant, isn’t it?
I would be very surprised if the U.S. and the U.K. went to war and had nothing to show for it afterwards. Blair and Bush are politicians, and they would have to answer to their own voters as to why they sent in troops for nothing. The outcome will be the telling point. If they go to war and don’t find anything, then I think that Bush and Blair should face a war crimes tribunal. Of course, if they find even just one weapon of mass destruction, the U.S. and U.K. stance would be completely justified.
1. Call me Mr. Sceptical, but I think it’s fair to assume that if the U.S./U.K. don’t find weapons of mass destruction then they will plant the evidence. I trust them no more than the Iraqis do. I’m amazed by people who do considering “the West’s” history of involvement in the middle east. I think the other outcome that will be decisive is how the new government is formed, and what sort of a government it turns out to be. The Iraqis fear that it will be yet another puppet regime of the US/UK. Afghanistan is a good example.
2. It would be nice if it got Bush indicted as a war criminal, but of course the US has vehemently opposed establishing the International Criminal Court, which is used to try people accused of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide because the US says that its citizens will be “unfairly targeted.” Think of Kissinger’s case, for instance, who France, Belgium, and Chile I believe (it involved the US setting up Pinochet in power), accused of war crimes.
I will try to answer more later, including Sad’s questions. I suggest though that everyone here take a crash course in Middle eastern history, including past and current, including huge financial aid to Israel, US and Brit. etc. involvement in middle eastern affairs — including huge financial aid to Israel, past support of Saddam, and support of other middle eastern tyrannies. There’s plenty of good info out there, but a suggestion, avoid official sources, avoid overtly obviously biassed news sources, and don’t trust embedded reporters.
On a side-note something I wrote at lexx.com before the “undeclared war” started.
Personally, I agree with the UN Inspectors that they need more time; to me war is an admission of failure, and anyway, some of the US claims against Iraq are extremely dubious (some have been proven to be false). However, Saddam is horrible, and I would like to see him gone, but not this way. After, and during “Desert Storm”, many, many ten of thousands of Iraqi civilians died (well over a hundred thousand actually), partially as a direct result of the bombing and because the infrastructure was hit so bad. Sanitation facilites were obliterated and a cholera epidemic ripped through the population — to make matters worse, the sanctions meant that there were far less medical supplies to deal with it — it also didn’t help that at least one hospital was bombed.
BTW, I saw a program on TV last night (the National) which talked about how the US supplied poison gas to Iraq (and Saddam) when Iraq was an official ally and Iran was the official enemy (Rumsfield was directly involved , as was Bush Sr.) They also wanted to cover-up the gassing of the curds because they supplied gas to Iraq (and because they didn’t want their relations to be hurt).
One other quick note that I’ll go into depth later on. Don’t expect the Iraqis to cheer for your side when thier people are getting killed; both military and civilian. Remember that Saddam had conscription, and many Iraqis are losing family members. The instances of US soldires taking down Iraq flags and hoisting US flags has also been a major blunder — even the soldiers have been chastised it’s happened several times and that certainly makes it look like aggressive imperialism: “Hail the conquering hero”.
When I write here next I’ll look into the plusses and minuses on both sides of opinion.
Have chosen to remove this post- on reading it again, have decided it was pointless 🙄
One thing- everyone take a deep breath before posting- can see things may be beginning to get past the simmering stage (then again may just be being paraniod)
Hi All,
Yesterday would been my Granddady Vaughn’s birthday & he served in World War II; I’m in support of our Troupes in Iraq in memory of him; however, I’m also in support of peace. I pray that this war will end quickly & bring our Troupes back safe & sound.
I don’t approve of what our President is doing, but I do, & will keep doing til our Troupes come home, support our Troupes & their cause; I’m hoping that many more of them don’t get killed, come home in body bags or end up captured.
Some of the people I work with at the Snowline Hospice Thrift Store agree with President Bush & this war; they also believe that Bush #1 should’ve done this; I keep telling them that the 1st Bush was asked by the Kuwaiti People to chase the Iraqi out, then got out of there & had to put out the Oil fires in Kuwait; but this President only wants World War III to happen & will stop at nothing to conquer the world. I also tell them that this Bush has a deep hidden agenda, & if any country on this planet doesn’t agree with him, he’ll blow them up. This usually shuts them up.
This is just my view on the subject & would just like to put my 2 cents in; take care & have a great Spring & March.Let’s pray for our Troupes in hope they get back safely,
JhevzHow long has Bush in power?, and how long does it take his opponents to accuse him of everything under the sun?, is it to be that every successive President must take the blame for the mistakes of the past?
If Bush and Blair are war criminals for ridding the world of it’s most dangerous threat then I must also be a war criminal for supporting their action, and so must a lot of other people.
If the choice was between Bush and Saddam running you’re country are you Bush haters trying to tell me that Saddam is preferable?, until Bush has done what you accuse him of, then I, like many others will put it down too mindless hatred.
I admit I don’t know Bush as well not being an American, but I do know and trust Blair.
You accuse Bush of being a war criminal. why, because you don’t have the stomach for war?, and he has the uneviable task of sending his countrymen to their possible deaths.
You sit at home in comfort while the troops risk their lives to support both their country and President, what makes you right and them wrong?
And you can’t accuse Bush or Blair of being war criminals for undertaking an action that needs to be taken, war criminals by law are those who break the rules of engagement and ignore the Geneva convention, the fact is, is that they are war criminals in you’re mind because you don’t agree with their stance, when in reality you have no justification for that accusation.
The same goes for the anti-war brigade, oh yeah it’s easy too criticize when you don’t have to get your hands dirty, and say these things knowing perfectly well you live in a democratic world that wouldn’t shoot you dead for uttering such words, yet the person that you protesting against is all that stands between you and a tyrant that would happily kill you and your family.
If these people want too protect Saddam and maintain peace why don’t you all leave and join Saddam and see how much more comfortable your lives will be then, oh no, can’t do that can you?, that would mean giving up your cosy protected lifestyles, while men and women in the armed forces give their lives not only to protect you, but also to liberate a country where they don’t enjoy the pampered lifestyle you enjoy…hypocritical cowards.
Everyone’s for peace, but it always comes with a price, and war is that price, no matter how much the anti-war brigade rant and rave they do not offer a better solution, and if their demonstrations were ever successful, all that would have happened is that they would have brought Saddam more time to build his weapons and continue too deceive the world.
Like I said before, most of the voices of resentment come from students, how old were these students 12 years ago, about 6-10 years of age, too young to remember what a threat Saddam posed back then, thank god these people are ignored, because they are idealistic and unrealistic and simply do not know of what they speak, most of all they join in with radicals because those at Uni or college do the same, you see it with each successive generation of teens and it will never change, wait to you get to 30 and I guarantee your views on the world will be very different.
ADMI want to start by saying that being against this war does NOT mean that one is against the soldiers, I think we all agree that we want the troops to be safe just as we want the civilians involved to be safe. It also does not mean that one is a coward. We all have the right to say what we think, and we should refrain from denigrating others for their opinions.
And just a note too–the peace movement in the U.S. has a very wide range of participants in terms of age and background, it has been very apparent in the marches in NY and Washington.
I’m also sorry this is rather lengthy, but there is a lot of background that hasn’t been talked about and that I think might be useful in looking at the reasons why we’re in this war.
From my point of view, we’ve been given several justifications for this war, and they’ve turned out to be specious. What we’re left with now are the old standbys that we’re doing it for the Iraqi people/and or that the government has some inside information and is doing what’s best for us.
The only thing I’m going to say about the former is that we (the U.S.) supported Saddam through the 80’s with both money and weapons (including biological weapons), and even Cheney had no objections to doing business with him then. Humanitarian concerns are rarely the guiding force behind any government’s policies, I’m not even going to bother to run down the list of dictators as bad as Saddam whom we’ve supported in the past–I think we can all come up with some names. I can’t accept this war as some sort of a moral crusade on the part of our government.
Do Bush and Blair have inside information that justifies their rush to war? I don’t buy it. Inside information is a kind of myth. A government agent may have some satellite photos and a few details here and there that we don’t have, but if you keep yourself relatively well informed and get your news from more than one source, you usually have a pretty good idea of what’s going on in the world. We’re just as capable of thinking it through and analyzing it as the people in Washington or London. The outdated and plagiarized report from Britain that Powell used to try to prove the Iraq/Al Quaida link wasn’t that much of an anomaly. That is the kind of information government analysts use to put their reports together.
The documents Powell used to bolster his case that Iran was building up its nuclear weapon capabilites (the alleged purchase of uranium from Niger) have turned out to be forgeries. Here’s an interesting article about them from Seymour Hersh:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030331fa_fact1I thought the British board members would particularly enjoy the article, since it seems MI6 has their fingerprints all over the documents.
From my point of view this war should have been avoidable, the UN inspectors were making progress, and none of Iraq’s neighbors felt immediately threatened. But in reality there was no way to avoid this war because the will to avoid it wasn’t there. A lot of that has to do with the domestic political situation in the U.S. The Bush Administration, as difficult as it may be to accept, is a group of ideologues with a radical agenda . I think 9/11 set both their fears and their ideological certainties in stone.
The actual case for this war was laid out before 9/11 in a report called “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” issued in September 2000 by the “Project for the New American Century” (Sorry for the melodramatic names, but what do you expect from people who came up with the “Department of Homeland Security ” and the “Total Awareness Information Act”) Among the people who contributed to that report were:
Paul Wolfowitz, now deputy defense secretary. John Bolton , Undersecretary of State. Stephen Cambone, Head of the Pentagon’s Office of Program, Analysis and Evaluation. Eliot Cohen and Devon Cross, members of the Defense Policy Board, which advises Rumsfeld. I. Lewis Libby , Chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Dov Zakheim, Comptroller for the Defense Department.
It is basically the blueprint for a “Pax Americana”, and a lot of its recommendations (in more diplomatic language) can be found in the Bush Administration’s “National Security Strategy” document–released last September. Recommendations such as the “pre-emptive” strike policy, a total reversal of previous U.S. policies. I’m giving a link to a piece in the Atlanta-Journal Constitution newspaper which is a good run-down of the details and which also includes links to the original documents (they’re long pdf files which you may not want to bother with):
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0902/29bookman.htmlThese are public documents, and I imagine that their content had something to do with the resistance other countries exhibited towards the U.S. push for this war. The same group of people by the way were advocating a war with Iraq for a number of years before that. Check out the Carnegie Endowment for Peace report on “Origins of Regime Change in Iraq”:
http://www.ceip.org/files/nonprolif/templates/Publications.asp?p=8&PublicationID=1214
This is too long already, but domestically, 9/11 has been used not just to justify war with Iraq but also to push legislation (“Patriot Act”– another great name) through out supine Congress that abrogates some of our basic civil rights. Now a draft of the “Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003” (also known as Patriot II) has surfaced. The legislation picks up where the PATRIOT Act left off — more wiretaps and secret searches, government access to credit reports and other personal records, a database of DNA samples, and provisions allowing the attorney general to revoke the U.S. citizenship of anyone who provides assistance to a group the government considers a “terrorist” organization.
And I’m not even going to start on the assaults on existing environmental protection legislation, on civil rights, on women’s rights, on the separation between church and state and on and on that started before 9/11.
George W. has talked about the war as a crusade and a mission from God. I think this is a very scary group of old white men whose hubris is covering up a deep fear of a world that doesn’t belong to them. And I choose not to live in the kind of fear they’re trying to shove down my throat, and I don’t believe their war is adding to anyone’s safety.
elmey
The above post again goes too show just how those who oppose war will go too great lengths to avoid the issue at hand, and that is taking a very dangerous threat out of the equation, all I have seen from the anti-war brigade is rhetoric and speculation, they are forever looking for ways too add more doubt to those that sit on the fence, all of this stuff doesn’t distract me, because I know it is all being used as a weapon against Bush and Blair, anything that can dredged up about past misdeeds is used, anything from confirmed anti-war journalism is used.
All of this can come to a head when this war is over, now is not the time, the war has started and will finish with the removal of a threat we should all fear.
Whatever the reasoning you find comfortable to avoid war, whatever supposed logic you wish too apply in putting Bush in the same light as Saddam, you can never compare this ‘current’ coalition of Bush and Blair as being anything as dangerous as Saddam.
Again, the UN inspectors time was up, the top military brass knew that the inspectors could spend a helluva long time searching for these weapons, finding bits here and there, but missing the jackpot because Saddam is far too clever to allow all he has planned for slip away, and while the inspections had continued he could’ve have been negotiating with terrorists or rogue states to obtain weapons grade plutonium or uranium, and doing so with a lot more urgency than before as he would have known that the patience of the UN would have grown thin, they know the weapons exist, , many were unaccounted for and eventually they would’ve had to concede that the inspection team could not have covered enough ground in sufficient time, and the end result would’ve been the same…war.
You who oppose war can continue finding as much dirt as you can on Bush and Blair to confirm your belief’s, I personally am not interested in your own little personal grudges, all I’m concerned about is taking care of Saddam.
After all said and done the American government has a bad past and I’m sure for many reasons it’s likely too continue, but this is all secondary to the reason we are at war.
The fact is, is that no matter how hard you moan you won’t change the government of your country be it the UK or the US, you don’t have too respect their decisions, but you will have to live with them, so get over it, and look at the big picture…a threat to the world is about to be extinguished and that is enough for me, and should be for you.
ADMThe above post again goes to show just how those who support war will go too great lengths to avoid the issue at hand, and that is taking a very dangerous threat out of the equation, all I have seen from the post-war brigade is rhetoric and speculation, they are forever looking for ways too add more doubt to those that sit on the fence, all of this stuff doesn’t distract me, because I know it is all being used as a weapon against Saddam and Bin Laden, anything that can dredged up about past misdeeds is used, anything from confirmed pro-war journalism is used.
All of this can come to a head when this war is over, now is not the time, the war has started and will finish with the insertion of a threat we should all fear.
Whatever the reasoning you find comfortable to support war, whatever supposed logic you wish too apply in putting Bush in the same light as Saddam, you can sometimes compare this ‘current’ coalition of Bush and Blair as being dangerous as Saddam et al…
The fact is, is that no matter how hard you moan you cant just change the government s of other countries be it Iraq or Afganistain, you don’t have too respect their decisions, but you will have to live with them, so get over it, and look at the big picture…another threat to the world is about to emerge and that is not enough for me, and it shouldn’t be for you.
I highly recommend this week’s
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THE CHURCH OF THE SUBGENIUS!
(praise “Bob”)I thought the ***** ***** that goes by the name of Bonnee was banned, nice to see you haven’t changed, you’re still an *****.
Play you’re little games Bonnee, because the ******* I spoke of definitely include you, so go ahead and change my posts if you wish, just confirms what we all knew before…you’re a ******** *****.
BTW, looks like the numbers in the anti-war brigade are dwindling as people come to their senses and no longer wish to listen to ******** ****** like ******** Bonnee, the polls are beginning to reflect this.BTW, Saddy, even though you may not agree with my standing in regards to this conflict, I do apologise for the heavy handedness in what I have said, but this is an emotional time for all of us and feelings run high, and I do appreciate other people’s opinions even though I don’t understand them. But I would say that I’m surprised you let the constant nuisance that is Bonnee back on this board, was he not banned?, and if so why is he back?, we were all sick to death of him the last time he paid us a visit, so please kick him out before he get’s back to his old tricks.
ADMADM as i have stated before we will not allow bashing of another member of this BB. i have edited the name calling in your post, even though they weren’t cuss words, because of that reason. if you would like to discuss this further you can email or PM me.
mary bethA -DM wrote:I thought the ***** ***** that goes by the name of Bonnee was banned…
He was. But his ban is obviously lifted. However, I gave him a warning in another thread. I told him, “aut disce aut discede,” which means, “either learn or leave.” He subsequently responded with latin nonsense. I’m not sure if it remains to be seen whether or not he harkened to my word.
Flamegrape wrote:A -DM wrote:I thought the ***** ***** that goes by the name of Bonnee was banned…
He was. But his ban is obviously lifted. However, I gave him a warning in another thread. I told him, “aut disce aut discede,” which means, “either learn or leave.” He subsequently responded with latin nonsense. I’m not sure if it remains to be seen whether or not he harkened to my word.[/quote]
No offence Flame, but I would’ve thought it would be within your powers to get rid of this contant nuisance, we all know what Bonnee’s like and the trouble he’s caused in the past, so why is neccessary too allow him to keep posting his troll posts, weren’t we sufficiently fed up with him the first time around???
I know it’s not Saddy’ policy to have a banning regime going on, but Bonnee was obviously banned for good reason the last time he spouted his c**p, so I can’t understand the change of heart, unless of course Saddy is unable to ban him through him finding a way to continue his posting regardless of the original ban.
And as for asking Bonnee to learn, not a chance, we’ve got more chance of Saddam being godfather to one of Bush’s grandchildren, besides I would have thought it painfully obvious that Bonnee has his own set of rules regarding his behaviour, and that he chooses to ignore any other’s, oddly enough I thought we’d all ‘learnt’ that after his last barrage of trolling, especially after his went out of his way to upset just about every moderator on the board, I’m sorry Saddy, but you should have stuck by your guns on this one.
ADMK- not sure what crime Bonne’s meant to have committed (I’m still relatively new here). I’ll stay out of it- just thought he was expressing an opinion rather than trying to cause trouble- anyway….
BTW, looks like the numbers in the anti-war brigade are dwindling as people come to their senses
Hardest part of this war was always going to be starting it, and the aftermath. Once at war, most of us will rally around the troops and their families. As to the opinion polls, the only true measure of what’s happening will occur after the war, not during it- a lot will depend on the time it takes to end the war, and the final casualty count. Best wishes to those in the gulf fighting the war on our behalf.
Flame – good link, prefer the British equivalent (will find the link sometime), but parts of it were good nonetheless. Thanks
As to the offending comment:
The fact is, is that no matter how hard you moan you cant just change the government s of other countries be it Iraq or Afganistain, you don’t have too respect their decisions, but you will have to live with them, so get over it, and look at the big picture…another threat to the world is about to emerge and that is not enough for me, and it shouldn’t be for you.
I’m going to assume you mean this- correct me if I’m wrong…
1) We can’t just replace any government at will just because they oppose us2) America’s doing this as a knee jerk reaction to secure it’s position as the world’s sole superpower and will quash any country that may be close to superpower status in the next few years/decades, especially one that may be opposed to them, possibly leading to another cold war.
Running short of time- but I do remember these points being raised by some members of the media and addressed- (something to do with “that’s not what we’re trying to achieve here” – someone answer plz- or I’ll do it tommorow. Will preferably dump the Qs on ADM after the strong reaction a few posts up
”fluffy wrote:I’m going to assume you mean this- correct me if I’m wrong…
1) We can’t just replace any government at will just because they oppose us
2) America’s doing this as a knee jerk reaction to secure it’s position as the world’s sole superpower and will quash any country that may be close to superpower status in the next few years/decades, especially one that may be opposed to them, possibly leading to another cold war.
More or less – I just fear for the long term stability of the region in the aftermath of an American occupation. My view is that the ‘liberation’ of the Iraqi people will be a recruitment program for pan Arabists and/or Islamics across the Middle East, playing into all sorts of fears or concerns. Iraq itself is a nation state that arose (and thrived) in such a post war context , and look how well the colonials have managed that since. Although I recognise the desire to depose this horrid man and his horrible regime, the fact that the American’s circumvented the will of the UN will have all sorts of consequences across the world. My reading of the conflict is about retaining the balance of power, and been seen to tip the scales in favor of those Western interests coinciding with regional interests. Such a foreign policy on domestic soil (or sand) will play into an already volatile situation – if not sooner, then certainly later. No doubt the Americans will be able to contain/ward off a great deal of conflict, but it seems to me that they will have shoten off their nose to spite their two faces.
personally, i don’t think any country in this world is supporting/opposing this war for the reasons they say they are. every one has some kind of hidden agenda-how well that remains hidden remains to be seen. we’re not being told the whole truth about all of this. yes, Saddam Hussein is an evil man, and the whole world would be far better off without him and his rotten regime. but is this the right way of disposing of him? don’t the Iraqi people have the right to determine their own destiny?
there are too many unanswered questions for me to be supportive of this war-violence at the best of times sickens me to the pit of my stomach. however, if it is a necessary evil, i wish someone would tell me EXACTLY why, no BS. until then, all i can do is support all those men and women in the coalition who are out there fighting, hope that they all come home safe and soon-even if i cannot entirely support the war itselfOne reason and one reason alone, there is no other choice left, why does nobody understand this concept, it’s comes down to him or us it’s as simple as that, would you rather be in a situation where our troops take on Saddam, but at the same time show compassion and humanity to the Iraqi people, a situation where it is not only about taking a dictator but also about freeing the oppressed Iraqi people?
Or would you prefer that those you care about die a senseless death at the hands of one man you never met?, one man who can kill without remorse or caring?, because if you truly believe Saddam would not attempt to wipe you and your’s out, then you do not understand the danger we all face.
I think after this week you have got all you need to know about the danger he poses, the parading of non-coms, battered and humiliated in front of T.V cameras. The execution of two soldiers in cold blood, not given the chance to be recognised as POW’s, just shot when it was clear they would’ve had no chance but to give themselves up. The helicopter pilots that although have not been treated as badly as the maintenance crew were like them forced into facing a camera. The cowards who use civilians to hide behind while shooting at soldiers who cannot shoot back, the one’s that smile and laugh while cameras parade the dead bodies of Americans and add insult by pulling their trousers down. All of these atrocities flout the laws that govern war, the law that is meant to bring a civilised approach to this war….The Geneva Convention, the fact that the Saddam has not done anything to prevent this proves just how dangerous he is, yet even after all this we will still have those who will doubt why this action is necessary.
I say again that Saddam’s world has nothing in common with ours, our laws of decency and civilised behaviour have no place in Iraq, the atrocities you are seeing is what life is like in Saddam’s world, so for all those who say ‘this war is wrong’ or feel that war was never necessary and their arguments and ideals would solve the problem, does it not seem obvious that you’re pleas for peace would never have been entertained by Saddam, the west and Saddam are too far removed in terms of culture and democracy.
Let’s pretend war was not an option, well I would have said that Saddam would eventually threaten Kuwait again only this time armed with weapons of mass destruction, or he would supply terrorists with these weapons, and all the time spent searcing for the weapons allowed him to clear his decks by arranging deals that would allow him clear the weapons out by selling them to terrorists.Hi all,
Let’s not people-bash anyone; there’s no point in arguing about this; there’s going to be different opinions; it’s obvious.A-DM,
I’m really support our soldiers in memory of 3 Vaughn men, who came back alive from serving in World War II; however, I’m not in support of our war mongar President who doesn’t believe in peace; I also don’t believe in what our President is doing. I want the rest of our soldiers to come back home alive & safe; these soldiers are the real 1s we should support.
I also want Saddaam Insane oust as well as his nasty, mean sons; but there’s a better way than blowing them & the innocent Iraqi citizens up; we can get rid of Saddaam & his sons without involving the innocent Iraqi citizens, who are starving & don’t need to be blown up or injured in anyway.Let’s all get along, please; let’s not argue about something that’s a neverending arguement; let’s, instead, show everyone that we’re peacemakers & that we Americans believe in the Lady in the Harbour (the Statue of Liberty) & support & pray for our Troupes in hoping that they come home alive & safe.
Take care & have a great end of March; Peace be with you all.I support & pray for our Troupes,
JhevzJhevz, I really appreciate your sentiment and your caring in these circumstances, but in spite of this you have said there is another way too rid the world of Saddam, well I’d like to know what it is.
Unfortunately, for all the anti-war talk I’ve still yet to hear another viable solution to the taking Saddam out problem, all I’m hearing is anti-Bush and anti-Blair and that’s why I feel that the people who argue against war miss the point entirely, it’s not about them, it’s about Saddam.
With Bonnee turning around my post the way he did, it appears that he is pro-Saddam, unfortunately all I can do is attempt to ignore people as evil and malicious as Saddam himself, the other posters here have shown that even though they do not trust Bush, they do not support the actions of Saddam, which is a credit to you, however for every ten people like you, there is a character like Bonnee who manipulates you and stirs your emotions, and he’ll claim to be just like you when his real agenda is not only having a hatred for Bush/Blair, but also showing support to Saddam. Most of these characters will attempt to hide this from you, and those who openly admit it like Bonnee will pretend to be your friends whilst all the while stirring your emotions to the point of sheer anger and perhaps violence, these are the same people who are at the heart of violent demonstrations and hooliganism, they are they simply there to get you too react while they cower in the shadows, whilst the people they have caused too get violent are arrested.
Like I said before Jhevz, emotions run high during this time, and I would never advocate war if there was another way, there simply isn’t, we simply didn’t have the luxury of diplomacy or the actions of a group of UN inspectors who would never have been to able to achieve what they set out to do.
Whatever the reason for a quick solution, which hopefully war will bring about, we shouldn’t forget that Saddam is the target, the sole reason all this has happened, forget the oil, forget the french, forget the mistrust and hatred of Bush or Blair, the terror and death that man can inflict on those around us is truly terrifying, and that over shadows any other concerns you may have.Because when this war is long over you will still get the same people who hate Bush/Blair, except they would’ve have found a new reason to do so. But I tell you that even though many think Bush is the villain, he won’t be out to gas you, tell you who too support or kill your loved ones because they don’t fight in his name, and I doubt very much he will seek too take on another conflict in his term as President, unless it again becomes apparent that another madman like Saddam is threatening us, for all his wrongs, he is not Saddam Hussein, because if he were you would’ve been dead long before you got to post anything on this board that was negative, remember you still live in a democracy, you are still a million miles away from what the Iraqi people live under, you do not live under tyranny, even though people like Bonnee would have you believe so.
ADMwas that from “Hamburger Hill”? that was a very disturbing film many years ago! but i did watch it a few times on cable and found it very engrossing, but like i said disturbing!
am i right Flame? or waaaaay off base? hehe! RL is trying to interfere in my life right now but the good news is ‘i am kicking its butt!!!’ 😀 😀 😀
With Bonnee turning around my post the way he did, it appears that he is pro-Saddam, unfortunately all I can do is attempt to ignore people as evil and malicious as Saddam himself
for every ten people like you, there is a character like Bonnee who manipulates you and stirs your emotions, and he’ll claim to be just like you when his real agenda is not only having a hatred for Bush/Blair, but also showing support to Saddam. Most of these characters will attempt to hide this from you, and those who openly admit it like Bonnee will pretend to be your friends whilst all the while stirring your emotions to the point of sheer anger and perhaps violence… you do not live under tyranny, even though people like Bonnee would have you believe so.
I think someone should send in the troops to liberate Squish – I mean, ADM – from the tyranny of his own preconceptions and predujices.
It never ceases to amaze me what you think you understand – you’re so convinced of the tenability of your own convictions that anyone who might disagree with you is instinctivelly labelled a bad character (or of bad character, be it stupid, lazy or cowardly, etc).
You could actually get a gig working in Sadaam’s ministry of propaganda – you ‘re so threatened by alternate viewpoints that you’ll do whatever you can to invalidate and interpret away the implications or consequences of your own superior ‘thinking’. 🙄
I think someone should send in the troops to liberate Squish – I mean, ADM – from the tyranny of his own preconceptions and predujices.
**I would hardly call them preconceptions, I think most of us know what a troublesome conception we know you to be, as for predujices, yep, you could say that, I have a very strong predujice against you and for good reason, hence the reason you were banned in the first place.
It never ceases to amaze me what you think you understand – you’re so convinced of the tenability of your own convictions that anyone who might disagree with you is instinctivelly labelled a bad character (or of bad character, be it stupid, lazy or cowardly, etc).
**No just you, you have demonstrated so often in the past with the same rubbish you come up with as above, you use the same tact everytime, it has become predictable and formulaic.
And of course I’m convinced by my own convictions, why would I post if I wasn’t?, and saying that instinct is responsible for my view of you is just laughable, I’ve had plenty of time to realise what you are like with all the problems you last caused on the board, but you’d think that the ban would’ve made you realise that you weren’t wanted, now either you’re incredibly stupid or it’s the actions of a typical troll…I’d say the latter.
As for saying who’s a coward, I’ve never accused a single person on this board of that (well apart from you, mainly because I truly hate you), but it is directed at certain individuals within the anti-war brigade, but I certainly wouldn’t label anyone on this board in meeting that criteria (again aside from you).
No doubt you are relishing you’re new found freedom on this board and are enjoying the fact there are new people around who don’t remember your pre-banning exploits, but there are still a lot of us that do.You could actually get a gig working in Sadaam’s ministry of propaganda – you ‘re so threatened by alternate viewpoints that you’ll do whatever you can to invalidate and interpret away the implications or consequences of your own superior ‘thinking’. :roll:[/quote]
**If by that you mean me posting my thoughts in a legitimate post, then thankyou for claiming it is ‘superior’ thinking, I personally would not have claimed as much, but thankyou nonetheless for the compliment.
And yes I will attempt to get people to see that there is another valid argument against those who think the war is wrong.
As for propaganda, well you really do live in your own world don’t you, what possible reason do I have to deceive or lie to anyone?, because for the best part that is what propaganda is, and please tell me what consequences or implications my thinking might have?, aside from receiving your mindless posts in return I cannot see any other consequence, or perhaps there is another consequence, that some people might not be so quick to turn against this war when given the fact that Saddam is a threat that deserves as much.
And if I was ‘threatened’ as you say, then I would have thought I would have lost my objectivity and conviction in the face of posts who argue against my views, as that is not the case I will continue too post whilst not feeling threatened. And while I’m not feeling threatened I will say again that people like you are the threat from within, you play people Bonnee, to suit your own ends, you’ve have done so in the past and will do so again, we’ve had many people on this board who have tried to wreck it’s spirit and failed, you are the only one that has ever come close, and you do it in a very clever but very devious way, which is why I say you are the type to incite violence in others if you were engaged in demonstration, cold, calculating and cruel is what I would choose as words to sum you up.
ADM
BTW, yes my previous log on name was Squish, but I couldn’t use that name anymore due to the amount of times that I’ve had to log on using different versions of that name, this was a direct result of the board failing so many times.
Only you could make it into a big deal for some bizzare and twisted reason, but then I expect no less from you.A-DM: I’m sorry to see that you didn’t heed Mary Beth’s message on bashing people. BTW, my post is intended to be constructive criticism. And while I do feel offended by much that you say, I won’t call for your banishment — nice guy that I am. (j/k) 😉
A -DM wrote:As for saying who’s a coward, I’ve never accused a single person on this board of that (well apart from you, mainly because I truly hate you), but it is directed at certain individuals within the anti-war brigade, but I certainly wouldn’t label anyone on this board in meeting that criteria (again aside from you).
Oh good, I’m glad to see that you weren’t talking specifically about any of us when you wrote, “The anti-war brigade, as far as I’m concerned are all misguided cowards” and when you wrote,
A -DM wrote:why don’t you all leave and join Saddam and see how much more comfortable your lives will be then, oh no, can’t do that can you?, that would mean giving up your cosy protected lifestyles, while men and women in the armed forces give their lives not only to protect you, but also to liberate a country where they don’t enjoy the pampered lifestyle you enjoy…hypocritical cowards.”
Forgive me for thinking that that may have been directed specifically as an attack on us (those who are anti this war). But, I think I can assume that you have more than implied that we are “stupid”. Or was I wrong about that too, in which case, how stupid of me.
(BTW, my father, a very intelligent man who was a Captain with the British Army during WW2, and was a Major with British military intelligence, whose brother was an RAF pilot killed during WW2, and whose father was an officer who was gassed during WW1, does not believe that the action is justified. Ah, and re. an earlier comment of yours, he is over 30).
You told us before, “forget your prejudices and your hatred,” good advice, I suggest you do the same when it comes to any of the board members. And remember, judge not lest ye be judged. I’m sure I’ll be judged over the validity of this post later.
A -DM wrote:You accuse Bush of being a war criminal. why, because you don’t have the stomach for war?, and he has the uneviable task of sending his countrymen to their possible deaths.
You sit at home in comfort while the troops risk their lives to support both their country and President, what makes you right and them wrong?
And you can’t accuse Bush or Blair of being war criminals for undertaking an action that needs to be taken, war criminals by law are those who break the rules of engagement and ignore the Geneva convention, the fact is, is that they are war criminals in you’re mind because you don’t agree with their stance, when in reality you have no justification for that accusation.BTW, I never accused Bush of being a war criminal, nor did anybody else in this thread to my knowledge (I may have missed it), I merely said, somewhat waggishly I might add, that it would be nice if he could be tried as a war criminal, but he, unlike in Britain, opposed signing on to the International Criminal Court — which is yet another example of how the US admin. does not support the strengthening of international law, nor the UN etc. And, BTW, the leaders can be held responsible, as war criminals, for the actions that their troupes take, and the directives they give. Oh, and only a real idiot would ever “accuse Bush or Blair of being war criminals for undertaking an action that needs to be taken,” especially considering that it is highly debatable (we are debating it, aren’t we?) if the actions they have taken, and are taking, were the best approach. And even if they just made an honest mistake, that in and off itself would most probably not justify branding them as war criminals.
One more point, what makes you so absolutely sure that you’re right, when most of the world, seemingly, thinks you’re wrong? And I’ve heard very few of the intelligentsia (or people who practise international law) who believe that the war is justified or support the war, but things may be different where you are.
Sure Saddam has a brutal regime, and the world would gain by having such a regime removed from power, but it is the pre-emptive nature of this strike (as well as other concerns) based on numerous assumptions (rather like your posts I might add) that has many people scared — the idea that ‘we’ have the sovereign right to attack ‘them’ because if ‘we’ don’t ‘they’ might attack ‘us’, for instance. The coercive and threatening tactics (as well as the bribery) of the US to get other countries on side hasn’t exactly won the confidence of people either. They say they want to bring democracy to Iraq, they speak up for their sovereign rights, but do we have any indication that they respect other’s sovereignty (Canada has been threatened economically because of our lack of support), and do we see them trying to build a more democratic, fairer world-community, including the UN? They have stated that they have the right to protect their interests abroad, and it’s clear that they will do this by any means possible, despite the fact that it often impinges on other’s rights. But that is another issue for another day…
Another pint I wish to make, I can see some rather compelling arguments coming from both sides (not really in this thread though ;)), but upon weighing up the arguments from a standpoint of what I consider to be the issues of paramount impotance, we all have inherent biases, I fall most assuredly on the anti this war side.
BTW, you have the right to post here as much as you like A-DM, but I do feel that this thread is becoming a little overly dominated by you (in word count anyway), but since there doesn’t seem to be much of a pro-war response, I suppose you’re just trying to even things out with your incessant barrage.
BTW, this is aimed at no one in particular ;), but it’s something to bear in mind when in a heated debate and “emotions run high”: One can be on the offensive without being offensive (hope this post does not offend any sensitive sensibilities).
A -DM wrote:BTW, yes my previous log on name was Squish, but I couldn’t use that name anymore due to the amount of times that I’ve had to log on using different versions of that name, this was a direct result of the board failing so many times.
Only you could make it into a big deal for some bizzare and twisted reason, but then I expect no less from you.I can fix that for you if you like!? I don’t think it was your fault that your login name got all screwy!
Just send me an email with your prefered handle and password and I’ll change it.
That goes for anyone else too by the way!
hello there, saddy beat me to the punch but i did want to point out as well that when you guys are having trouble logging on just email me and i will help you sort it out…:D
re this thread, i am glad that by and large the war is being discussed thoughtfully, even if we can’t help getting heated about it…i myself do not know yet how i feel as i cannot separate my own selfish feelings about being yanked out of my new job and home from my ongoing need for resolution regarding 9/11…i find myself extremely resentful over the fact that osama is still slithering around out there, along with several of his likeminded brethren but several people are dying in iraq…and i admit to being puzzled as to why iraq, when several followers of islam who commit terrorist acts are being given aid and succor in multiple countries, such as yemen, saudi arabia, even quatar, one of the more ‘progressive’ countries…it seems a hopeless fight indeed…but the fact remains that none of the antiwar people has yet voiced a plausible course of action against these people who feel it is their godgiven right to fly commercial airliners full of innocent people into skyscrapers, or immolate themselves along with a bus full of innocent people in the middle of a market place, or kill olympic athletes…the list goes on…you see, i too believe that each country and its people are entitled to create their own little slice of heaven or hell on this earth; so when i kept hearing about afghani women who were being beaten for showing their ankles in public, i shrugged and said, okay, that is the world they live in, the sons they have borne have helped create it, not my choice, not my problem…but when you come and spread your poison in my country, and kill my countrymen, then it is my business…so please, if any of you have any real ideas about how to stop that, i am all ears
Logan wrote:A-DM: I’m sorry to see that you didn’t heed Mary Beth’s message on bashing people. BTW, my post is intended to be constructive criticism. And while I do feel offended by much that you say, I won’t call for your banishment — nice guy that I am. (j/k) 😉
**If it makes you feel any better then go ahead and call for my banishment, I have no axe to grind with you, but should I leave under those circumstances I shall not concern myself with it, I believe that while most of you are of the opinion of being against the war, I have been a lone voice and if I should suffer the fate of being banned because you don’t want too hear what I have too say, then it will leave me with the conclusion that those who oppose one voice are the one’s with the problem.
A -DM wrote:As for saying who’s a coward, I’ve never accused a single person on this board of that (well apart from you, mainly because I truly hate you), but it is directed at certain individuals within the anti-war brigade, but I certainly wouldn’t label anyone on this board in meeting that criteria (again aside from you).
Oh good, I’m glad to see that you weren’t talking specifically about any of us when you wrote, “The anti-war brigade, as far as I’m concerned are all misguided cowards” and when you wrote,
**Sure, but that’s for you decide, I will keep my opinion as to who I class as a coward to myself (except for Bonnee), I will not name name’s (again except for Bonnee), but I still do feel the anti-war brigade are cowards, if I aim that directly at you then you have the right to say so, but even if you should feel you belong to that group, I offer no apology…but under the instruction of Mary Beth I shall not call anyone else as such (only Bonnee and only then under provocation).
A -DM wrote:why don’t you all leave and join Saddam and see how much more comfortable your lives will be then, oh no, can’t do that can you?, that would mean giving up your cosy protected lifestyles, while men and women in the armed forces give their lives not only to protect you, but also to liberate a country where they don’t enjoy the pampered lifestyle you enjoy…hypocritical cowards.”
Forgive me for thinking that that may have been directed specifically as an attack on us (those who are anti this war). But, I think I can assume that you have more than implied that we are “stupid”. Or was I wrong about that too, in which case, how stupid of me.
**In fact you are wrong, and just remember it was you that called yourself ‘stupid’, as again it’s not aimed at those who are anti-war, but those who are of the anti-war brigade, and those are the ones who march or have to be violent in their argument, but again if you feel wronged by it then you came to that conclusion, I am not going to apologise for it.
And if the point I made does upset you, then I guess you must be included in to that equation, if it doesn’t then you have no reason to feel upset.(BTW, my father, a very intelligent man who was a Captain with the British Army during WW2, and was a Major with British military intelligence, whose brother was an RAF pilot killed during WW2, and whose father was an officer who was gassed during WW1, does not believe that the action is justified. Ah, and re. an earlier comment of yours, he is over 30).
**I really don’t care who your father is and what he’s done, I have a brother in Iraq who may just be spilling his guts to protect people like you, personally I’d say to him not too bother, but he’s doing what he believes in and I am doing the same.
And I stand by the viewpoint that a large majority of the anti-war brigade is comprised of students, and whenever there is a demonstration about anything, you can bet it will involve students for some bizzare reason.You told us before, “forget your prejudices and your hatred,” good advice, I suggest you do the same when it comes to any of the board members. And remember, judge not lest ye be judged. I’m sure I’ll be judged over the validity of this post later.
**I don’t know half the people here and I do not judge them on the way they live their lives, I do question their reasoning for their anti-war stance, but that’s not passing judgement.
I do not care on whether you judge me or not because I know you are not qualified to do so, the biggest problem with my posting in that no one is ever going too listen or heed what I have to say because i’m in the minority, but I know I will have the satisfaction of knowing that when this war ends the things that Bush/Blair are supposedly have done or will do will not have happened, because at the end of the day it is all rhetoric and what you and other fear may happen.
The fears mount up, new accusations are thrown without any basis in fact, and it’s all done to try to make what the anti-war brigade seem right, yet when this war ends people will go back to their lives and forget this ever happened, many protest because once in a while it’s good to get behind a cause, many do it for more devious reasons, and some do it because they want to fit with everyone else, well I’m of my own mind and I don’t follow the crowd, I see one threat and one danger…Saddam Hussein, I don’t wish to see beyond that, because if I do it will make this war seem wrong, and that’s the way I see you and other protestors, you can’t see that regardless of all other reasons, one thing will be acheived and it’s the one thing I have interest in, I don’t care what you ‘think’ Bush and Blair have done, I know that what is said about them is unproven and just speculation, nothing that has been said about them is anything other than a personal belief, I know can feel happy that what I know of Saddam in not propaganda and I am not motivated by rumours and speculation, he is a bona fida threat to my life and those I care about, and if that means I upset people to get that point across then so be it.A -DM wrote:You accuse Bush of being a war criminal. why, because you don’t have the stomach for war?, and he has the uneviable task of sending his countrymen to their possible deaths.
You sit at home in comfort while the troops risk their lives to support both their country and President, what makes you right and them wrong?
And you can’t accuse Bush or Blair of being war criminals for undertaking an action that needs to be taken, war criminals by law are those who break the rules of engagement and ignore the Geneva convention, the fact is, is that they are war criminals in you’re mind because you don’t agree with their stance, when in reality you have no justification for that accusation.BTW, I never accused Bush of being a war criminal, nor did anybody else in this thread to my knowledge (I may have missed it), I merely said, somewhat waggishly I might add, that it would be nice if he could be tried as a war criminal,
(**How can you say you don’t accuse him of being a war criminal but wish to to have him tried as a war criminal, so an innocent man should be tried then?)
but he, unlike in Britain, opposed signing on to the International Criminal Court — which is yet another example of how the US admin. does not support the strengthening of international law, nor the UN etc. And, BTW, the leaders can be held responsible, as war criminals, for the actions that their troupes take, and the directives they give. Oh, and only a real idiot would ever “accuse Bush or Blair of being war criminals for undertaking an action that needs to be taken,” especially considering that it is highly debatable (we are debating it, aren’t we?) if the actions they have taken, and are taking, were the best approach. And even if they just made an honest mistake, that in and off itself would most probably not justify branding them as war criminals.**The International war crimes court is open to abuse, there are many in Europe who hate America so much that they would need little excuse to find Americans guilty of war crimes, I would feel the same when the politicians in Brussels are so corrupt, Bush does not trust Europe and I don’t blame him.
And war criminals are usually denoted by the actions they take in war, but as Bush and Blair cannot guarantee the safety of civilians (especially as Iraqi militia shield themselves behind innocent people), any casualties caused by allied troops who are not actively seeking to harm Iraqi people must be deemed as the dangers of war, it’s harsh, but unfortunately nothing in war can be guranteed or predicted.
Bush and Blair have gone too great lengths to ensure the loss of civilian life is kept to a minimum, this includes no bombing of strategic targets where non-coms are housed, the refrain shown by US and Uk forces when the enemy uses it’s own civilians to protect themselves, in fact the US and UK are fighting a war with one arm tied behind their backs, as this is a direct result of Bush and Blair trying to be humanitarian in their approach to the war, hardly the actions of war criminals are they?
Unless you believe that they should be tried for having the guts to take on a man who will kill using the heinous weapons devised, and whatever you may believe you can’t be tried for starting a war, it’s how you behave in it that defines whether you constitute being a war criminal, but watch closely on T.V, watch the Iraqi’s that humiliate the families of dead soldiers to understand what a true war criminal is like.One more point, what makes you so absolutely sure that you’re right, when most of the world, seemingly, thinks you’re wrong? And I’ve heard very few of the intelligentsia (or people who practise international law) who believe that the war is justified or support the war, but things may be different where you are.
**The war according to some laws may be incorrect, but this does not apply to international law, the reason most people are upset and declare that it is, is that the US and UK have used an old edict from the gulf war and have essentially expanded on it too claim the right to war, and the fact is that they are right, yet some people see it as a very poor way of getting the right to go too war.
You’re seeing what you want to see, in the UK and US the war is being favoured, and contrary to their claims the majority do not support the anti-war brigade. The rest of the world does not neccessarily follow the anti-war brigade, thousands of demonstrators don’t make the voice of one country, the only reason you see it that way is because naturally the media have to report these demonstrations, and they are usually reported from countries that are Anti-American or the population is comprised largely of muslims, I think it’s safe to say they don’t support terrorism, but they don’t have any love for America, in reality most of what you see is not about the anger of war, but the anger of America’s involvement in it.
I feel I’m right because I won’t allow anything but the death of Saddam Hussein to distract my belief in this war, I support America and the UK for this reason, it’s selfish but I have no care for the Iraqi people or their oil, I do have an interest in self-preservation and of those I care for and to a certain degree the continuation of the world, we have the same goals but it’s how we go about it is where our differences lie, you have to ask yourself that if America (with possibly the only military resources to take on such an action) did not take out Saddam, then who would???, every time I ask this question it either never get’s answered or something else it used to answer it, so I ask it again…do you really think that Saddam would stop building weapons if left alone???, and the other question that get’s avoided ‘Give me another viable way to rid the world of Saddam’, these questions never get answered, which is why I can say my resolve and reasoning is stronger than that of those who oppose war.
And that’s what it boils down to, what option has been offered by the anti-war brigade?…the answer, none whatsoever, why?, because they don’t have one?Sure Saddam has a brutal regime, and the world would gain by having such a regime removed from power, but it is the pre-emptive nature of this strike (as well as other concerns) based on numerous assumptions (rather like your posts I might add) that has many people scared — the idea that ‘we’ have the sovereign right to attack ‘them’ because if ‘we’ don’t ‘they’ might attack ‘us’, for instance.
**So you are honestly trying to say that Saddam not using a nuclear, biological or chemical weapon against us is an assumption?, if Saddam is quite happy to attack people in his own country then what makes you think he won’t you?, he attacks based on religion, he hates the Shia and the Kurds, it’s only the Sunni muslims that get a good deal in his regime.
But you suggest that we have no right to attack when it is done too protect, and by that again we should leave Saddam alone in the hope that he will leave us alone, so all the T.V interviews that he has done where America is classed as infidels is just him being friendly then, are you that naive too think that when Al’Qaida comes knocking on his door looking for weapons he’s going to turn them away saying ‘ no, I will not help you kill my infidel friends in America’.
And speaking of America, I must I’m shocked by the amount of Americans who are this board who haven’t been behind me, think about it, it’s people like me in the UK that keeps our countries bond so close, many of the people here know I have supported the US in bad times, mainly because I believed that we had common ideals, yet all that counts for nothing now, as these same people are ready to turn away from there country, so it makes me wonder why I should believe in your country when it seems obvious you do not, yet I, like Tony Blair believe like most Americans to be genuine and honest, and despite this I still believe in America.
BTW get it right will you, we’re not attacking a them we are attacking a few dangerous individuals that are headed by Saddam, it’s not about aimlessly killing Iraqi’s, it’s about our freedom as well as their’s, if it does backfire then at least we can say we tried to do something about it, instead of just demonstrating and offering no solutions.The coercive and threatening tactics (as well as the bribery) of the US to get other countries on side hasn’t exactly won the confidence of people either. They say they want to bring democracy to Iraq, they speak up for their sovereign rights, but do we have any indication that they respect other’s sovereignty (Canada has been threatened economically because of our lack of support), and do we see them trying to build a more democratic, fairer world-community, including the UN? They have stated that they have the right to protect their interests abroad, and it’s clear that they will do this by any means possible, despite the fact that it often impinges on other’s rights. But that is another issue for another day…
You’re right it is a issue for another day, America has got a bad track record, but fundamentally it has got it’s head screwed on right and especially where Saddam Hussein is concerned.
Every country in the world has done things it should be thoroughly ashamed of, the fact America is so wealthy and large makes it the easiest target, and that Europe chooses to see America as an empire of arrogance and greed, yet the same could be said of them.
People forget that America has come to the world’s rescue twice before and they are never thanked for it, yes America intervened because it served their own interests, but America is for Americans and they have the right too protect themselves as we would do the same, we should regardless of what reasons they have be extremely grateful they did intervene, because one day that country may decide it is fed up with helping an ungrateful ally like the French, very few generations have passed since France was liberated by the US and UK, yet here we are again with us hating each other as we used to.
Point the finger at the US all you like, there are no different to any other country in past misdeeds, I used to hate America for the same reasons many do today, yes they appear flash and loud, and it sometimes does appear they think they rule the roost, this all comes from the wealth and the glamour that is naturally American, people wither despise it or are jealous of it. But if you peel all that away you get a very insecure country, one that knows everyone else is looking on at them in envy, but also a country that has pride beyond belief and the greatest desire to do good, I have since realised that America is a country that is geared up to fight injustice and persecution, but like every country once in a while comes along a leader who puts his countries resolve to the test, one like Nixon who has other ideas on how to be President…but again this happens in every country.
Fact is, is that America knows that is on top of the wanted list of
international terrorism, that’s not one person it’s a whole country on that wanted list, and obviously America is looking to protect itself, especially when the terrorists have the gun, and all they need are the bullets, who do think is will ready and willing to give them those bullets???, and when they’ve shot America enough times do you think they will stop shooting???Another pint I wish to make, I can see some rather compelling arguments coming from both sides (not really in this thread though ;)), but upon weighing up the arguments from a standpoint of what I consider to be the issues of paramount impotance, we all have inherent biases, I fall most assuredly on the anti this war side.
BTW, you have the right to post here as much as you like A-DM, but I do feel that this thread is becoming a little overly dominated by you (in word count anyway), but since there doesn’t seem to be much of a pro-war response, I suppose you’re just trying to even things out with your incessant barrage.
**You may not have noticed, but I am on my own here, but I feel that’s because I’m not a stereotypical Sci-fi fan, truth be told I have a pssing interest in it and this board is just another place to see what other’s think about.
The only reason it seems to be dominated by me is because I stand for what I believe, I don’t care how long it takes to argue my point so long as I do argue it, and as my friends and my loved ones lives could one day be put at risk by ill-informed people, I will fight tooth and nail to make that point made, like I said my brother is in Iraq at this very moment, fighting for you and me, and I’ll be damned before I don’t fight for what he and I believes in.BTW, this is aimed at no one in particular ;), but it’s something to bear in mind when in a heated debate and “emotions run high”: One can be on the offensive without being offensive (hope this post does not offend any sensitive sensibilities).[/quote]
**FYI, it is virtaully impossible to have a discussion when it is so close to someone’s heart as it is to mine and not end up offending someone for it, although it is not my intention I will still say that until this war is over I will view those who post unfactual anti-war rhetoric with the disdain is deserves.
I only want two things too come out of this war, god willing, one is for the job on Saddam to be done, and the other for my brother to come back safely…anything beyond that i have no interest in, so spare your anti-americanism and any other political nonsense you have to say, to me it’s not as important as those two things.
ADMFX wrote:hello there, saddy beat me to the punch but i did want to point out as well that when you guys are having trouble logging on just email me and i will help you sort it out…:D
re this thread, i am glad that by and large the war is being discussed thoughtfully, even if we can’t help getting heated about it…i myself do not know yet how i feel as i cannot separate my own selfish feelings about being yanked out of my new job and home from my ongoing need for resolution regarding 9/11…i find myself extremely resentful over the fact that osama is still slithering around out there, along with several of his likeminded brethren but several people are dying in iraq…and i admit to being puzzled as to why iraq, when several followers of islam who commit terrorist acts are being given aid and succor in multiple countries, such as yemen, saudi arabia, even quatar, one of the more ‘progressive’ countries…it seems a hopeless fight indeed…but the fact remains that none of the antiwar people has yet voiced a plausible course of action against these people who feel it is their godgiven right to fly commercial airliners full of innocent people into skyscrapers, or immolate themselves along with a bus full of innocent people in the middle of a market place, or kill olympic athletes…the list goes on…you see, i too believe that each country and its people are entitled to create their own little slice of heaven or hell on this earth; so when i kept hearing about afghani women who were being beaten for showing their ankles in public, i shrugged and said, okay, that is the world they live in, the sons they have borne have helped create it, not my choice, not my problem…but when you come and spread your poison in my country, and kill my countrymen, then it is my business…so please, if any of you have any real ideas about how to stop that, i am all ears
Finally, someone get’s the point!!!
Thankyou FX, I think we’ve been around long enough to not be lulled into thinking as the anti-war people do, let’s just say the older you get the wiser you get!!!
But several posts later you managed to put the point across that I’ve been trying to do all along, (maybe coz I’m too long winded in my approach!).
So like FX said, all you anti-war brigadiers, stop whining how it’s all wrong and give us a solution to make it right.
And it’s nice to know that some of my American friends left in Saddy land know what I was trying to get at, but as usual FX you are a lot more eloquent in your approach than me.
ADMSadGeezer wrote:A -DM wrote:BTW, yes my previous log on name was Squish, but I couldn’t use that name anymore due to the amount of times that I’ve had to log on using different versions of that name, this was a direct result of the board failing so many times.
Only you could make it into a big deal for some bizzare and twisted reason, but then I expect no less from you.I can fix that for you if you like!? I don’t think it was your fault that your login name got all screwy!
Just send me an email with your prefered handle and password and I’ll change it.
That goes for anyone else too by the way![/quote]
Heh, thanx Saddy, but there’s not much point as I expect I’ll be banned before this war is over!!!…but thanx anyway.
ADM
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