WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS! (Warning! this topic is very controve

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  • #38646
    SadGeezer
    Keymaster

    WARNING! This topic is very controversial! Flaming (personal attacks) and racial slurs will be dealt with immediately!
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    You know what really gets me?! The treatment people of my religion get, simply because we’re Muslim!

    I mean, just the other day, my uncle, a pilot working for Malaysia Airlines was detained for hours while he was questioned and his background checked, simply because he brought with him a Koran written entirely in Arabic. I mean, national security is one thing, but THIS?! Is it just me, or is some new Inquisition popping up, this time directed at us! Paranoia? I don’t think so! Please understand, Osama and his Al-Qaeda are a minority among Muslims. Any REAL practitioner of Islam would know that the Prophet specifically ordered that his followers kill no civilians, even in jihad. We are simply trying to make a living just like everyone else, but instead, we get seven kinds of hell simply because we hold Muhammad and not Jesus or David as our Messenger. So come on, next time you see a man in a turban or a woman in a burqa, please remember, we just want to live our lives in peace. Just like you.

    [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: mary beth ]

    #63187
    Anonymous
    Guest

    It’s a sad problem in the US. Recently there was a report(Time Magazine) that thousands of muslims were changing their names in the US to avoid discrimination. Even people I care about disapoint me when I hear them generalize the situation as “Arab” or “Muslim” problems.

    It’s a terrible thing the lack of education about Islam in American education. Even worse is the only times we hear about it is associated with terrorism nowadays. There’s never been any drama’s, sitcoms, any shows that star and feature muslims the way they have with Christians with 7th heaven and things like that.

    Every religion has different sects, Islam is no different than Christianity or Judaism in the fact there are extremists.

    Many Americans dont know Islam unlike Judaism revere Jesus Christ and is one of their prophets. It’s really funny just how much in common the religions have. The violence is just fanaticsm.

    End result is the guy or gal you’re sitting next to in work/school etc… that you like so much and find interesting could very well be a Muslim. People are people, every mainstream religion teaches good morals if nothing else. Evil comes from somewhere else.

    #63188
    Deliena
    Participant

    I couldn’t agree more with the comments above. I am a complete agnostic, because I find that religon, far from bringing people together in communities as it should, appears to spend a lot of time driving wedges between people.

    There is no major religon on Earth that preaches violence, and Islam is a very gentle faith by nature.

    Any nasty minded fool can twist religious teachings to fit their mindset. Look at the number of so-called Christian sects which advocate violence – the Klu Klux Clan being the prime example of course.

    The unfortunate truth is that some people do not understand that life without fear is a right all humans have, irrespective of race, creed or colour, and that they gain that right simply by existing – it is not qualified in any way.

    The answer to this issue is the most complex problem ever to face humanity, as people have the right to believe what they will, where do we draw the line between believing one is right, and backing up one’s actions? and as soon as we draw that line do we not fall guilty of a form of fascism? True tolerance is a Utopian ideal which whilst theoretically attainable, is practically impossible.

    The best we can do is to teach our children, guide our friends and family and attempt to change the world in some small way ourselves every day that we live.

    If one person touched one person a day for their entire lifetime, and those people who were touched, touched other lives in return the world could be changed irrevocably within a generation. These social changes have happened spontaeously before – most notably with the peace movements in the Sixties – there is nothing to stop them happening again. In the wake of 9/11 and of course, WWII, Bosnia, Central Africa, Ireland et al there is a new found desire to live in peace and harmony in nearly every community in the world.

    One can only hope that this desire isn’t lost when this tragedy becomes part of the history books, and when our children ask us where we were, as we asked our parents about Kennedy.

    #63189
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote

    I mean, just the other day, my uncle, a pilot working for Malaysia Airlines was detained for hours while he was questioned and his background checked, simply because he brought with him a Koran written entirely in Arabic.

    That should definately have not happened. A person should not be discriminated against because of their race or religion. It’s absolutely unfair and unjust. I mean, when the footage of the planes smashing into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon was shown in Australia, there was emotional manipulation used in that, so that everyone felt sorry for the Americans. Then it showed a scene, supposedly from Afgahnistan and supposedly shot after the attack. The footage showed three people dancing, and it could have been taken anywhere and any time. That was more emotional manipulation, to make us hate the Afghanis.
    But three people celebrating, shown on footage that could have been shot a year or two before and used for manipulation doesn’t mean that all Afghanis and Muslims are evil.
    Quite frankly, I was disguisted at all the emotional blackmail used.
    There were attacks on Muslims – and their mosques – in Melbourne, and that shouldn’t have happened. Most Muslims and Afghanis are completely innocent citizens, yet they get the blame. I wish other people could see and understand that bin Laden and the Al-Qaeda Network are a fringe minority and that picking on perfectly innocent citizens is wrong and evil.

    #63191
    Anonymous
    Guest

    message deleted by SadGeezer because it was bloody stupid – needless to say it was a troll statement negative reference to people from Isreal

    (Please don’t ban me from SadBoard. I posted this message to make a point. You can go ahead and debate all you want. But there are those who have already made their decision to kill innocent people. They must be stopped becasue there is no reasoning with the religeous fanatics. And no, I’m not a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian or anything.)

    the picture was deleted for formatting reasons

    [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: mary beth ]

    [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]

    #63192
    bonnee
    Participant

    I’m not sure what point you think you’re making Stupid Muslim Terrorist, but posting that image is an instance of the rhetoric you purport to be rendering reduntant. Each and every side has a story to tell, and this merely sets out to priveledge one hiSTORY over another. Taking the moral high ground may be thought to be justified, but that is what causes everyone to behave so immorally. Notions of innocence and guilt are used to justify each and every act of violence, with each party somehow imagining themselves to be one or the other. With every image or story we chose (not) to share, the other side has one it has chosen to tell or withold to justify their own actions – making us all complicit in one another’s actions, and implicating everyone equally.

    Your timing is particularly odd – look at what is happening in the Isreal right now. The cycle of violence and hatred is consuming both sides, fueling each’s anger and resentment in accordance with some moral distinction along the lines of ‘innocence’ and ‘guilt’ and ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Right now each side is circulating pictures and accounts of what the other has done in order to do more of the same to each other. Sooner or later the respective stories and picures could quite easily pass into the other hands and mouths and be mis/taken for each other –but only because such accounts invariably tell the same moral difference. As soon as we start demonising someone we (also) become the demons. How can you talk about the impossibility of reasoning with someone not like ‘us’, given your own reasoning? Despite your own disavowal, you’ve just indicated that ‘we’ are just like ‘them’ by claiming that we’re not.

    [ 10-04-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]

    #63193
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Please explain your point. All I see is anti-semetic phrase and a terrible picture. What possible point could you be making? Honestly.

    #63194
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I claim responsibilty for bombing the Pub! And yes, it was very idiotic. Just like all of the rest of the terrorist acts commited throughout history.

    Do you think bombing the Pub forum was not nice? Of course it wasn’t nice! The point is that there is no point! There are Muslim extremists who are paradise-bent on the destruction of Western Civilisation!

    Deliena said in an earlier post that there ought to be more representation of Muslim beliefs on television. Ha! No good! Islamic fundamentalists hate EVERYTHING about the west! And they wrap it all up in the Israel-Palestine issue! If the West took military action and destroyed Israel and re-stablished the pre-1947 Palestine borders, it would not help in the slightest. And don’t forget that Israel was established through Jewish terrorism, so they are not innocent either. What’s worse is that Israel has nukes. If it gets really bad for them, they are certainly going to use them. They don’t have intercontinantal range, but they could vaporise Mecca, Medina, Jordan, Lebanon, and all the rest.

    It’s only a matter of time before there are more terrorist atrocities commited in western countries. When an american city is vaporized by a hidden nuke, what are we going to do then? How are we going to prevent such a thing happening? Reasoning with them is out of the question. Tracking them down and killing them is the only alternative.

    In any case, I think it was a bad idea to bring up this subject on the Sad’s bulletin board in the first place. It will only lead to arguements with no resolution.

    {SadGeezer: This poster does indeed have the same IP address as ‘Stupid Muslim Terrorist’ – I should like to point out that it is NOT the same IP address as Super_Joe_Yammerman)

    [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]

    #63195
    mandara k
    Participant

    Okay, we all need to calm down a little bit, okay.

    Joe, methinks it is not wise to bring up this subject with strangers; possibly better said amongst friends that you can gauge their reactions and you theirs? You have a right to be angry; I’m not saying that; discrimination is something I well understand; but this topic only invites trouble.

    Everyone has a right to their own opinion; without being judged. Yes, emotions come into play and yes, we can get upset about things; but name calling and implicating get us nowhere. Learn to control your mind (and/or) emotions so they do not control you.
    And here is a goodie too, There are three truths; your truth, my truth, and THE truth; it is important to look for The truth, not just stop at mine or yours.

    Is utopia possible? Who’s to say; but I’m more interested in the process than actually living there; life without conflict would be dull and we would take everything and everyone for granted.

    Peace, Mandara K

    #63196
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Okay, I’d like to start off by saying that I’m a Jewish woman living in the south US, so naturally I get a lot of trouble coming my way from rednecks and hate groups. I’d also like to publicaly state that any and all unwarned, malicious, civillian – oriented violence is Terrorism. It’s terrorism when Palistinians attack busloads of Israelis and hide in churches,it’s terrorism when the USA teaches certain of it’s soldiers (at the SOA in ft. Benning ,georgia) how to launch strategic assaults on third world villages, targeting women and children, even though I’m a Zoinist, I think it’s terrorism for Israeli tanks to destroy entire refugee camps to get at a few hundred terror leaders, and lastly, it’s terrorism to attack anyone within the groups I’ve mentioned just because they are part of the same religion that tbe terrorists are in. Terrorism isn’t just among muslims, but it seems there are so many more of them that are bad than good because the bad muslims are being spotlighted right now. During WW2, in America, it seemed that anyone who was Japanese or German must be a Nazi, so whole groups of Japanese american citizens were interred in prison camps in the US until after the war, they did nothing wrong ,but back then their seemed to be SO MANY Japanese terrorists that they couldn’t risk it. Same here, most white southern men are good folks, but let a hate crime happen, suddenly every white man has to go about defending himself. Sure ,regular Muslim citizens support and take care of terrorists, they have no choice, when bad people are in charge, good folks suffer.A good point would be back in WW2 Germany, not all German citizens agreed with Nazism (in fact, a great deal didn’t) but when the Nazis were in charge, if they said march, you did…if they said go laugh at those Jews, you did…….if they said put your kids in the Hitler youth ,you did….basicaly you did what they said ,or went to the KZ with the other “trash ” (as they put it).
    so, in closing ,I say… Sure, their are a LOT of muslim terrorists, there are also a LOT MORE non terrorists,and consider that your neighbor, the woman you saw at the mall wearing a burqua, the man that comes to your house to cut the grass, and roughly half of the doctors treating survivors of the WTC, while they are muslim, are more than likely not terrorists.

    #63197
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Okay, a few things that I forgot to mention……
    1. non-muslims…. don’t get mad at muslims who complain about being mistreated for being muslim, because although it seems not so bad to you, you’re not the one it’s happening to.
    2. muslims who are being questioned and second guessed more often that usual… remember, that it’s all for everyone’s own safety and that the same would happen to the white folks in a muslim nation if there was a white terrorism surge .
    3. next time, put this in the angst forum

    #63190
    Anonymous
    Guest

    And yet another badly-thought-out sweeping generalisation from super-joe. Perhaps I can reply in kind (…. purely in terms of balance you understand).

    I wonder if you would have the same attitude if a member of your family was one of the many thousands of people killed by Muslim terrorists in the last few months. Your religion has affected innocent men, women and children all over the world – by blowing them up in a most cowardly way.

    I appreciate that the Muslim terrorists are the minority, but it may also be important to look at it from another point of view:

    There are an awful lot of Muslim terrorists! Why is this?

    Perhaps Muslims such as yerself super_joe, should take some responsibility for the damage and bad name given to you and your own religion by other Muslims. It’s plainly bloody obvious that you aren’t all terrorists, but which of you are?

    I have a few friends who are Muslims, thank goodness they aren’t as pig-headed as you!

    As for the other posters in this thread, I’d agree with much of what they say except that Afganistan and other countries harbour and take care of terrorists, Afgans, Palistinians and others have assisted, clothed, fed and supported these people. Sure, there are mitigating circumstances, but this is a complicated issue and we are just scraping the surface.

    Having lived so close to the troubles in Northern Ireland for the last 30 years, you learn that nothing is so black and white and that the most damage is done by small minded people who don’t fully appreciate the problems of the conflict.

    Are YOU a terrorist Super_joe? Are you a troll terrorist? You are walking a fine line, be careful.

    [ 10-04-2002: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]

    #63198
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Nirvanah Rimmer:
    3. next time, put this in the angst forum


    I really, really, really considered that. But unfortunately, the angst forum is for sci fi angst (I should have been more forward thinking)

    Liked your other comments though – didn’t agree with all of them, but good comments nontheless.

    #63199
    FX
    Participant

    you know, when i lived in california, i met many japanese americans whose parents had been placed in internment camps during world war II…and i thought, how horrible…but that is easy to do from the distance of forty or fifty years…and while i have muslim friends and teachers that i respect and love, the simple fact is that the people who committed these acts were muslim, not chinese, not spanish, and not irish,and some of them had been living in the us for a while…so if your uncle has to stand in line and put up with a few more indignities than the rest of us who fly must (long waits in security lines, taking your shoes off at the gate, getting inspected and detected) so be it…i am betting that the families of the dead fireman and policemen who tried to help, and the people on those flights, not to mention those in the wtc and pentagon, wish that a little more ‘racism’ had been shown early on…i know i am, and i didn’t lose anybody except my fellow humans…i’m sorry if your feelings are hurt, but if it keeps my mom from spending the last few minutes of her life being terrorized by some idiot with a knife while she watches her plane fly into a building or the ground, well hey, i guess i am a racist…the reason i mention my mother is that i made her drive home to virginia last week when tampa international got shut down because of some guy with a gun trying to get through security…the guy got away, and he may not even have been a muslim, but the fact remains that things have changed here in the usa, and we are all just going to have to live, and hopefully not die, with it…

    #63200
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by FX:
    [QB]the simple fact is that the people who committed these acts were muslim, not chinese, not spanish, and not irish,and some of them had been living in the us for a while…[QB]


    FX Muslims are Chinese, they are Spanish, they are Irish. Its a religion not a race. Considering all the terrorism and racism sects like the KKK have committed why not start holding all Christians? The people who commit these acts are NOT true followers of Islam. They are radical sects like Al-Qaeda and Hammus(spelling). The same way each Religion has radicals.

    Im not totally disagreeing with what you are saying. Racial profiling has gone on forever its not something that can be fixed the way our world currently is. Heck even an American (John Walker) is one of these people.

    But I absolutly agree that a little inconveience isnt something to whine about in a world where buildings can fall at any seconds at the hands of evil and the ignorant. We just have to be careful we dont allow it to turn into a vendetta or persecution.

    #63201
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Sorry if Im coming off as sanctimonius thats not my intention. I dont have a solution. No one does, thats why terrorism has been going on since we climbed down from the trees.

    #63202
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I am sorry if I’ve offended anyone in this forum, but I needed to have my say. Does it?I just want to live my life in peace, just like everyone else.I’m lucky. With Chinese parentage, Chinese Muslim parentage I might add, I can pass off as a Chinese or Japanese man. But what about my fellows in the Arab lands? Or from India or Pakistan? Will they be able to walk down to the corner store without the fear of members of some crazed minority hurting them? I had just wanted to say that, since being Jewish doesn’t mean one is a greedy, materialistic moneylender and being Christian doesn’t mean being a Bible-thumpin’ racist, being Muslim doesn’t mean that I am a suicidal terrorist bent on world destruction. Consider too all the negative publicity we Muslims are getting. With each portrayal of Muslims as evil, in books, on TV, in magazines and other mass media, there will be even more reasons for the West to hate us, which will push even more Muslims towards the path of anger.

    There may never a good reason for violence, but there is ALWAYS a reason.Yes, there ARE a bloody lot of Muslim terrorists. BUT WHY?

    Getting to the point, the reason that I started this topic here was because I wanted someone in the West to hear our side of the story, because when push comes to shove, it’s only the West who can help us by stopping the cycle. We Muslims can only do so much.

    Oh and by the way, Stupid Guy, what an appropriate name. You have probably hurt Muslims more in this forum than any terrorist can. Your friends in the KKK must be proud of you.

    #63203
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by super_joe_yamaman:
    …because when push comes to shove, it’s only the West who can help us by stopping the cycle. We Muslims can only do so much.


    Like what? It seems to me that the only way you think something can be done is to belly-ache to the West! Can’t Muslims themselves do something? Why not clear off to a Muslim BBS and post your ‘WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS’ message there? Perhaps if a few of you get together, you might actually be able to get something done yourselves.

    Again, Super_Joe’s terrorist Troll tactic is to bludgeon his way through an emotive topic by generalisation and sweeping inaccuracies. Your posts Super_joe, seem to me, to be intended to antagonize. If as you say, you are intending to present the Muslim’s side of the story, you are doing a bad job – if anything, you’re doing the opposite.

    What is particularly annoying is that if I was stopped for carrying an Arabic version of the Koran, I would understand. Yes I would! I’ve had some scary moments myself travelling around Eastern Europe (particularly in Moscow during the Kosovo crisis) why should you or your family deserve special treatment?

    You aren’t highlighting a struggle, you are presenting a narrow-minded, ill-considered argument – We’ve all had to wait in long queues while detailed security checks were carried out on our baggage! Terrorism has affected us all negatively, why should you deserve special consideration!).

    [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: SadGeezer ]

    #63204
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    If anyone is interested…

    Islam:

    Hadith[/url]

    Injil[/url]

    Quran

    Zabur

    Christianity:

    Bible[/url]

    Judaism:

    Haggadah

    Kabbalah[/url]

    Mishneh Torah[/url]

    Talmud[/url]

    (I couldn’t find a good link for the Torah…)

    You’ll find most of it is pretty much the same. “Be good and worship the deity” and stuff.

    However, I think Kabbalah has an interesting structure. Those familiar with Tarot[/url] will see the relationships clearer. Aliester Crowley was really into Egyptian magic and Jewish mysticism. If Crowley were alive today, he would have been branded as a creepy New-Age hippy.

    [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: Flamegrape ]

    #63205
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I regularly (read..FORMERLY) used to go to this gas station down my block .Last night, this cute muslim man in front of me, whom I had sen there (and flirted with lol)before was buying a coke, and he used a visa check card (you know what I mean ,one of those cards that are advertised on TV for being easy to use because you don’t have to show id..etc..)and the clerk asked him for ID. The man gave him a drivers license, and the clerk said he needed something else, so the clerk gave him his citizen’s military ID pass. And the clerk ran it through and of course, it cleared. The man was kind, even said thatnk you to the clerk as he left, and never complained. Then I went through, used my check card, didn’t get ID’d ,and left all within a minute maybe. THAT was unnecesary detainment, and was wrong, and I’ve decided not to go back, and reported the man to his manager. This man wasn’t a security risk, he was buying a Coke, not flying an airplane or working at nuclear plant. Now, Super Joe, like I said before, it’s a hassle, and it’s bordering on wrong, but your uncle is a PILOT, and therefore is subject to extra scrutiny right now, it won’t be forever, but I’m sure that the examiners didn’t assume he was a terrorist immedeately, they just anted to make damn sure he wasn’t . He’s in charge of hundreds of lives, and so his life will just have to be scrutinised. Do you now see the difference between persecution and necessary inconvenience??

    #63206
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Kabbalah is great, but dangerous to play with ,unless you just do the neo hippy kind like Madonna, lol. It’s so dangerous and complicated that usually only 40 + yer old Jewish men who have memorised Torah are allowed to use it.(lol Alister and I just don’t listen well ,I suppose ).
    If you are really interested in it, Flamegrape, please don’t get any of the new age kabbalah titles, go with the Zohar, all that Golden Dawn and modernist garbage is neo -hybrid with Wicca -stuff.

    Be led to see one changeless Life in all the Lives,
    And in the Seperate, One Inseperable.

    #63207
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I stand by the fact that we all need a dose of empathy. What’s going on is a real battle of the modern world vs barbarism. We cant be blind to the fact that many of us allow our anger with these terrorists to spill over into racial and religious communities. Hence why so many Arabs and Muslims feel they need to change their names in the US. The evidence is there.

    However I really agree with Saddy here in regards to the West. I dont understand why so many countries feel its “the West” responsiblity to fix things we didnt break. We dont deserve to have to live in fear of terrorism. Thats the burden we ALL have to bear now. It’s not as tangible as being thrown off a plane because you’re Muslim but its just as immediate and more frightening.

    I dont think its a troll post by Joe. I feel tensions are hot, people are offended, its a tough day and age but buck up its a lot better than standing the line in the West Bank currently.

    Many forget the USA was isolationist up until the end of WW2. Its painful to see the way everyone wants us to fix X,Y and Z yet when things go wrong its the West, or the US that takes all the blame. We’d rather concentrate on our own problems and allies. Speaking of, America hasent had a better friend than Tony and Cherie Blair in the last few years. Seeing them with tears in their eyes speaking of the atrocity that happened in NY is a memory that will stick for a long time and a perfect indicator of how deeply this has affected us. But I cant for the life of me understand the legitimacy of the arguement that we are to blame for this in any way.

    It’s like how now the Palestinians and the Arab League tell us we’re to blame for all the trouble. I mean get real these troubles began eons ago. All 3 major religions; Islam, Judaism and Christianity are based off the same God with different prophets and all 3 religions were birthed in a 5 mile stretch where all these problems have been going on for 2000 years or more.

    I really dont have any answers. Part of me wishes Israel continues to defy the World and make a real dent in those that attack Israels sovereign right to exist. I have no real love for Israel but its a country thats had to put up with a lot of ****. Other parts of me wants the US and her allies to just go in kick everyones ass and say “Behave!”. But again its not the right thing to do. What is?

    Above all other points the most important one is one that Saddy and a few others have touched on. We dont deserve this. The average person has never suppressed or done anything wrong to those who want to cause terror. And because of the fact 100% of this current trend is caused by Muslim factions there’s going to be a few feathers ruffled. Like FX touched upon, 50 years ago we put the Japanese into camps in the USA. In other parts of the world people like Milosovec just kill em all off. I personally think the “West” policy has been soft to the point of sponge-like.

    #63208
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I am a pagan, whaterver religon you are i wouldnt be suprised if everyone in the world has an steriotipical image of me and everyone else folofing any religion that isnt there own.

    i know that i have images about cristians dispite the fact ive grown up with lot of open minded cristians who wouldn persecute me.

    i guess you just have to folow your own moral code and live your own life and try and ignore what other people say or do.

    #63209
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by LexxLurker:
    Above all other points the most important one is one that Saddy and a few others have touched on. We dont deserve this. The average person has never suppressed or done anything wrong to those who want to cause terror. And because of the fact 100% of this current trend is caused by Muslim factions there’s going to be a few feathers ruffled.


    I respectfully disagree. Sort of. This is a really messy issue. I recommend reading a little of the history behind this issue:

    A brief history of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
    A quick and easy-to-read Flash presentation of the history of modern Israel.

    Quest For Peace
    An informative article at the Canadian CBC news site.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the existence of Israel resulted from the last remnants of colonialism and the wars of the late 19th and early 20th centuries (a.k.a. “western imperialism”.) Palestine was controlled by the Arabs for the last 1300 years until the end of the first world war. (And don’t forget about the failure of the Christian crusades.) I can understand why the Arabs are mad at the west.

    In fact, why not blame the British for dropping the hot potato into the lap of the newly-formed and inexperienced United Nations? With that sort of reasoning, the Americans could blame the French for our troubles in Vietnam.

    Palestine is important to all three of the major world religeons. Perhaps the solution lies in the establishment of a new state that is not controlled by Jews, Muslims, or Christians. Call it “Holyland” and have it managed by the United Nations? I don’t know. This is a very tricky problem.

    The sooner this issue is resolved and we get friendly with the Muslims, the better. After that, maybe we can move on to larger, more important issues that face humanity. For instance, the settlement of L5, the Moon, Mars, and the moons of the gasgiants.

    #63210
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Nirvanah Rimmer:
    Kabbalah is great, but dangerous to play with ,unless you just do the neo hippy kind like Madonna, lol. It’s so dangerous and complicated that usually only 40 + yer old Jewish men who have memorised Torah are allowed to use it.(lol Alister and I just don’t listen well ,I suppose ).
    If you are really interested in it, Flamegrape, please don’t get any of the new age kabbalah titles, go with the Zohar, all that Golden Dawn and modernist garbage is neo -hybrid with Wicca -stuff.

    Be led to see one changeless Life in all the Lives,
    And in the Seperate, One Inseperable.


    Completely off-topic, but I have to say that I disagree with this. The Kabbalah (or Qabala, or Cabala, depending on who you read) is only dangerous to play with if your Belief System is rigidly structured in favor of it being dangerous. No religious and/or magickal practice is intrinsically dangerous, from Kabbalah to Thelema to Enochian Magic to the Unspeakable Rites of Abdul Al-Hazred’s loathesome Necronomicon. It’s what you bring to the table that creates danger. While I’ve never delved into Kabbalah (too many charts to remember, too structured, while I’ve always been a seat-of-the-pants type), I’ve known a number of people who have and emerged unscathed.

    –Aleck

    #63211
    Anonymous
    Guest

    LOL Alek, good point, allow me to clarify…
    I didn’t mean that Kabbalah itself is dangerous, I mean LEARNING the Kabbalah is dangerous, because it’s so misunderstood. It’s easier to get yourself wrapped up in an innapropriate and misinformed version of Kabbala that many other religions and mystic styles because not a lot of folks really get it.I mean, come on, it’s not the Craftor anything, but to play with it can get you drug into things you didn’t want to be a part of, like the Necronomiconand such, which, as I think you’d agree, would b dangerous
    The form I use is Spanish Kabbalah, which is mostly unchanged through the cnturies, but most modern day styles are mixed with Druidism, wicca, Asatru, and buddism (which is fine if you’d like to be a Druid, buddist, Wiccan, or Thor Worshiper, but highly innapropriate for Kabbalah),and thus the misinformation is bourne

    #63212
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Bekka:
    I am a pagan, whaterver religon you are i wouldnt be suprised if everyone in the world has an steriotipical image of me and everyone else folowing any religion that isnt there own.


    Well, be surprised lol. Religion is one of many things that makes us us . Anyone who assumes that you sacrifice goats and virgins and fly on a broomstick cause your Pagan isn’t comfortable enough with his own Faith to know anything about yours, so you go girl . As I say (VERY jokingly ) to my Wiccan sis -in- law “you can borrow my broom anytime ” to which she responds ” I hope the tree of Life doesn’t drop an apple on your head”

    #63213
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Unfortunately, the world is beginning to look like centre stage for a boxing match.
    In the west country of origin and where we belong takes precedence over the religion we follow, yes religious aspects cause a few problems in the West, but they do not invoke war or cause a people to rebel.
    It has to be said that the muslim faith has come together as if they all belonged to one country, a religious leader who can invoke hysteria and panic has more power than those who are elected to govern.
    So the pattern is, a religious zealot will twist the muslim belief to serve his needs, but where most nations would dismiss or argue if a politician had said something, muslims will not question the zealot.
    Most muslims are strictly adhered to their faith, their heroes and champions are the ones that are at the top of that faith.
    For instance, if the Pope said ‘The catholic religion should smite it’s enemies’, then it’s likely most catholics would think he’s lost the plot and would not act.
    Most muslim countries are vunerable, their countries are led by religious icons, those religious icons don’t believe in the way the west does certain things, the mistrust then becomes part of their religion.
    I’m sorry to say that Islam is being led blindly to not only to hate the west’s values and principles, but also the innocent people who cherish those values.
    I have nothing against religion, but let’s face it, religion plays second fiddle in the Wests development, but we don’t need religion to tell us we are inherently a peaceful people who don’t wish to see war or others suffer.
    In the middle east it is all about religion, it governs their lives, and through it comes tension.
    Religious practices should be of importance to those are devout, but it should never be allowed to dictate someone’s opinion.
    As the human race as a whole develops, most are beginning to think that the following of a deity is more to appease those who feel that this is what defines them as a person and the belief that a God will keep them safe and ensure that there lives are richly led and they will prosper why serving that God.
    Aside, from the middle east, most of us are only now realising that our desting truly lies in our own hands, and that a part of us says that God is just our own fears and
    guilt.
    We no longer live in ancient egypt, we aren’t the greeks who believed in the olympian deity’s, we are evolving and should not be scared of what we don’t know.
    At one stage history will record the demise of broad religions and the walls it put’s up, we are all human beings, no different to each other, we essentially share the same heritage, we were all born from the same place, so when that time comes, we will reflect on it and the religious differences will no longer hold us back.
    Unfortunately most religions are stagnant, point blankly refusing to embrace new ideas, those who are in power shun the prospect of change, with change comes knowledge, and the religious icons fear the day when we no longer need a faith to depend on, and they will do all that they can to ensure that this situation continues for a very long time.
    Islam is a prime example of this, but is not the only guilty party.
    But the middle east hasn’t budged much since the middle ages, it still feels that it’s on a crusade to spread the teachings of the Koran, and it’s values are deeply rooted in physche of it’s followers.
    The middle east sees the rest of the world’s growth as a threat, so these extremists play on the fear that the west is trying to destroy Islam, when it’s actually Islam itself that’s destroying it, if you look at this religion and many other’s, there is no allowance for mankind to grow and learn…one day we will all realise that we must depend on each other, be they Asian, American or European.
    Squishy

    #63214
    FX
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by LexxLurker:

    FX Muslims are Chinese, they are Spanish, they are Irish. Its a religion not a race.


    sorry lexx lurker; should have written ‘identifiably chinese appearing, or hispanic appearing or irish appearing’ …obviously it is a religion, not a race, but unfortunately for super’s uncle, the people we identify as muslim tend to be middle eastern appearing, thus relating back to the profiling issue…btw, in this age of ‘we daren’t say what we mean’, i also don’t like the catch phrase of ‘profiling’with all the negative implications…if someone tells you they were mugged by a ‘little white man with payos and prayer shawl’, then that is what you should be looking for…by extension, is it wrong to stop all middle eastern-may be muslim appearing people to avoid further terrorist acts? well, yeah, i guess that is profiling, i think we mostly agree that it is a necessary evil, and not necessarily persecution…as to the west’s role in all this, let’s bounce it back into the islamic court; why are you allowing these fundamentalists to run amuck? these people must have fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters…afghanistan had a nice little reign of terror going on, particularly against women, because of these fundamentalists, and none of the peaceable, ‘we just want to love god and be gentle ‘muslims did anything to correct these guys…in fact, i am mostly hearing that ‘we’re not all like that, so don’t treat me bad’ and precious little, ‘you’re right, we’re fed up with these goons too, let’s get them under control together’…and i guess that’s why my sympathy factor isn’t quite as high as it could be…so far the people that seem to be ‘with’ the ‘evil’ usa on this antiterrorism crusade are not ‘identifiably’ muslim, and those that are against this coalition would appear to be ‘identifiably muslim’ …so like sadgeezer says, why not ask for some strong show of support by islam against the terrorists, instead of telling people how rotten it is to be victimized…just a thought, and sincere hopes that you and yours never know worse than what you have told us about here…fx

    #63215
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Flamegrape:

    I respectfully disagree. Sort of. This is a really messy issue. I recommend reading a little of the history behind this issue:

    A brief history of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
    A quick and easy-to-read Flash presentation of the history of modern Israel.

    Quest For Peace
    An informative article at the Canadian CBC news site.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the existence of Israel resulted from the last remnants of colonialism and the wars of the late 19th and early 20th centuries (a.k.a. “western imperialism”.) Palestine was controlled by the Arabs for the last 1300 years until the end of the first world war. (And don’t forget about the failure of the Christian crusades.) I can understand why the Arabs are mad at the west.

    In fact, why not blame the British for dropping the hot potato into the lap of the newly-formed and inexperienced United Nations? With that sort of reasoning, the Americans could blame the French for our troubles in Vietnam.

    Palestine is important to all three of the major world religeons. Perhaps the solution lies in the establishment of a new state that is not controlled by Jews, Muslims, or Christians. Call it “Holyland” and have it managed by the United Nations? I don’t know. This is a very tricky problem.

    The sooner this issue is resolved and we get friendly with the Muslims, the better. After that, maybe we can move on to larger, more important issues that face humanity. For instance, the settlement of L5, the Moon, Mars, and the moons of the gasgiants.


    Flamegrape thats the WHOLE problem. Why not blame me for the holocost? Im a German after all. With that logic all Americans should leave America immediatly. None of us are native here are we? We gained it from conquest.

    When are we going to stop blaming people for their ancestors problems?

    [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: LexxLurker ]

    #63216
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Nirvanah Rimmer:
    I didn’t mean that Kabbalah itself is dangerous, I mean LEARNING the Kabbalah is dangerous, because it’s so misunderstood. It’s easier to get yourself wrapped up in an innapropriate and misinformed version of Kabbala that many other religions and mystic styles because not a lot of folks really get it.I mean, come on, it’s not the Craftor anything, but to play with it can get you drug into things you didn’t want to be a part of, like the Necronomiconand such, which, as I think you’d agree, would b dangerous


    No, I wouldn’t agree that getting dragged into things like the (exceptionally and blatantly fictional, but occasionally very useful) Necronomicon and the like is dangerous. Like I said, it’s all about personal Belief Systems (at least, that’s what I believe!). If one gets caught up in performing rituals to Nyarlathotep or Cthulhu, that’s not in and of itself a dangerous thing. If one approaches *any* book, ritual, or practice as “dangerous,” that person is going to find danger lurking therein. Whether it’s chanting the text of Fox In Socks repeatedly until entering a trance state or hanging out in graveyards to make an offering to Baron Samedi, the only danger is what gets brought to the table (unless, of course, you’re hanging out in a graveyard in a bad part of town…or, in fact, any graveyard in New Orleans; I’m speaking of external danger now, though ). In fact, I’d say that if, in studying some misinformed version of the Kabbalah, one got dragged into some other school of thought or practice, then so much for the better! There have been numerous interesting things I’ve learned simply because shoddy instruction led me to unexpected places. I’d say that the only *really* dangerous thing that can occur from approaching the Kabbalah from some misinformed source is making a fool out of oneself.

    –Aleck

    #63217
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    You made some good points, Squishy. Religeon dominates Muslim life.

    But the same thing can be said about the Jews. God had promised Canaan to Abraham and his descendants. According to the Jews, Israel belongs to them because God said so. No ifs, ands, or buts.

    #63218
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I totally agree with Saddy and FX.
    Why is it that the Islam community would rather support their religion over the country they live in.
    In the U.S and Britain, we hear muslims condoning violence, yet they understand the motives of terrorists and some sympathize, I guess that leaves other’s wondering whether where their allegiances lie if we went to war against a country that is primarily Islamic.
    I don’t think there is another religion which the world can’t trust, we simply don’t know if the muslims in our own country will support us and our values.
    Now this is where the small minority does not exist, most muslims do seem to agree with the fundamental principles that the terrorists believe, and this leaves a thin line between them and the terrorists.
    There is now an unsure element in every country with a muslim population, as anyone could go that further yard and kill because of what they believe.
    I still find it inexcusable for a people to believe that their God will reward them for killing innocent human beings, based on a notion that if we are not a muslim…we are evil.
    Terrorists target innocents, they are not targeting evil, how they can realistically believe that the rest of the world is evil beggars belief.
    What’s more laughable is that the people who support these terrorists are at as much risk as the rest of us, do the muslims in our own countries really believe terrorists care for them, but perhaps they themselves don’t care as they are willing to become martyrs.
    This leads the rest of the world to believe that these people do not have the basic feeling of self-preservation and the will to avoid the needless death’s of others.
    In some respects, Islamic extremists and their followers are much more of an evil than the Nazi’s, at least the Nazi’s fought a war that would plan to limit it’s losses.
    But with this war we have a group of people that show no remorse, mindless killers that are prepared to kill themselves in an attempt to maim and kill other’s, they are unstoppable monsters, and with any muslim who doesn’t outrightly denouce the killing and show support in a bid to defeat it, is the potential to become one of these unstoppable killers.
    So we look around us, we look at the muslim people we thought we knew and could trust, with a niggling doubt in our minds…for all we know that person could have strapped a few pounds of C4 round their waists in a bid to end our lives.
    The islamic world as a whole has to stand up in one clear voice and turn this fear around, they must be seen to rid themselves of the cancer that some of them harbor, but we hear nothing along those lines.
    So the sad fact is, is that they have nothing to fear from most of us, but we have every reason to be fearful of them, and the ones that wish to hurt muslims are acting pre-emptively through the fear of being killed without reason.
    If this was a war that could be met on a battlefield without the use of nukes or chemical warfare, then it would be resolved.
    Of course most of us would rather avoid any war, but we are back to a cold war, where we can’t trust and can’t possibly come to a peaceful resolution unless Islam joins the world and fights the cancer within.
    Squishy

    #63219
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Flamegrape:
    You made some good points, Squishy. Religeon dominates Muslim life.

    But the same thing can be said about the Jews. God had promised Canaan to Abraham and his descendants. According to the Jews, Israel belongs to them because God said so. No ifs, ands, or buts.


    Its a good point, Israel is their chosen land. But remember that both Jews and Muslims descend from Abraham. And Abraham walked the West Bank. Thats one major problem.

    The second is that Mohammad ascended into Heaven 3 miles away from the birthplace of Christ.

    The Muslims built a Mosque on the Temple of the Mount, the place where Abraham went to sacrifice Issac. This place is no more or less holy to either side because he is the father to both Arab and Jew.

    They cannot co-exist, its just impossible with the tenets of both religions. Israel is also nuclear capable and have made it clear they will never part with that land again.

    BTW I noticed the title of the thread has changed. If anyone has taken any personal offense at anything I’ve said I wholeheartedly apologize. Im arguing with the arguements not the person. Sometimes that line blurs with my posts but I never mean it to. This is one of the most fundamental arguements going around for the last 1000 years we’re all bound to disagree one way or the other on it.

    #63220
    Anonymous
    Guest

    i have added the warning to make it clear that we will not tolerate any flaming of any kind or racial insults. Lexxlurker you have not done anything wrong. the offensive post that showed up earlier in this thread was taken care of. so far everyone has been behaving and discussing this topic like the intelligent Sadgeezers we are.

    #63221
    bonnee
    Participant

    I’m an Arab married to a Jew – note how I refer to myself by way of cultural identity and to my partner by way of religious orientation. Within the Middle East, its the same difference: your cultural background determines your historical relation to/claim upon the land. Attempting to ‘explain’ the dispute between Arabs and Jews is part of the historical problem – there is no disentangling ourselves from the question of what a piece of land means to a people whose cultural identity is connected to an antecedent claim upon a land thought ‘promised’ to each of them in different ways (it is all part of the covenant that each claims to have entered into).

    One of the most shocking ways to illustrate the appalling mess of lineage and legitimacy is via the Holocaust. There is a strain within Judaic thought that urges the final solution was God’s way of resolving the problem of the Jews relation to a historical homeland. It helped – a rabbi tells me – precipitate their return to a homeland (Isreal was established again in the aftermath of world world two, and is said to be partly the result of the West’s guilt/shame in allowing the Holocaust to occur on its own soil). In so doing, the historical persecution of the Jews by one religion (Christianity) historically vindicated Zionism as a form of prophesy/fullfillment of a religious promise, leading to the displacement of the Palestinian people on (so called) Arab/Muslim soil, allowing the West to be seen to play another role in the religious persucution of a different people (the breaking of their promise). Consequently, the Arabs view the West as being involved in a dispute that doesn’t (alledgely) concern them, and it is believed that if it wasn’t for Western support, Isreal would not be there in the first place. The fact that all this occurs against a background of pan Arabism (resulting from Western colonialism of the previous century) complicates the issue even further. The Arabs imagine themselves to be the Jew of the middle east, living in diaspora on a soil that has been divided into false boundaries and nation states. ( this is of course bogus – all boundaries are artificial, including those between people) When Islamic fundamentalists try to bring the Middle east together, it is an appeal to pan arabism (as a way of uniting a religion that has been divided against itself by way of a perceived cultural imperialism and spiritual weakness).

    Racism – of course – is part of our collective cultural heritage. One of the interesting side effects of my partner’s background is that her family fled the perscution of Jews in eastern europe, and settled (of all places) in South Africa. She has to contend with the fact that her family history played its role in bringing about and holding in place the atrocity of apartheid. It is bizzare to meet Jews who claim – without shame or irony – that the ‘solution’ to South Africa’s problems is gassing the kaffirs as they work in coal mines. Naturally many South African Jews are offended by this, but many others couldn’t agree more. Cultural imperialism rears its ugly hydra head in unexpected ways.

    Finally, racism can run deeper in unexpected ways. Because my partner and I both reside in Australia ( a country which has managed to displace and vilify its indiginous population), we have encountered an interesting situation coinciding with the birth of our daughter . Family and friends alike couldn’t be happier that her blonde hair and blue eyes incarnate the Ayran ideal, helping to efface the sense of worthlessness that ALL middle easterns can experience way out west.

    [ 12-04-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]

    #63222
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Nirvanah Rimmer:
    … if they said march, you did…if they said go laugh at those Jews, you did…….if they said put your kids in the Hitler youth ,you did.


    I think you’ll find in most cases they didn’t. The Nazis used to kidnap kids and send them of to Hitler Youth camp. I had a neighbour once who told me what it was like when she was taken at the age of 6 (and like all the other kids in her group, it was without her parents knowledge). One of the scariest stories I’ve heard!

    #63223
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by bonnee:
    [QB]One of the most shocking ways to illustrate the appalling mess of lineage and legitimacy is via the Holocaust. There is a strain within Judaic thought that urges the final solution was God’s way of resolving the problem of the Jews relation to a historical homeland. It helped – a rabbi tells me – precipitate their return to a homeland (Isreal was established again in the aftermath of world world two, and is said to be partly the result of the West’s guilt/shame in allowing the Holocaust to occur on its own soil). In so doing, the historical persecution of the Jews by one religion (Christianity) historically vindicated Zionism as a form of prophesy/fullfillment of a religious promise, leading to the displacement of the Palestinian people on (so called) Arab/Muslim soil, allowing the West to be seen to play another role in the religious persucution of a different people (the breaking of their promise). Consequently, the Arabs view the West as being involved in a dispute that doesn’t (alledgely) concern them, and it is believed that if it wasn’t for Western support, Isreal would not be there in the first place. The fact that all this occurs against a background of pan Arabism (resulting from Western colonialism of the previous century) complicates the issue even further.


    All of that is pretty much true. I’d just like to add that there is no doubt that without Western support, modern Israel would not exist. It’s not just a belief among Arabs. It’s a hard fact.

    On top of the guilt of the holocaust, there was this Cold War fear that Egypt was going commie. When Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal, seized the Sinai Penninsula, and blocked Israeli access to the Gulf of Aqaba, the West was terrified. (Can you think of anything worse than fundamentalist Islamic communists?) Eventually the conflict with Israel and Egypt was resolved. But not before massive Western support was given to the Israelis.

    The West has always been stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    One thing that has dramatically improved is the Arab view of Israel. At first, they vowed the destruction of Israel. Now they are actually recognizing their right to exist. But the Palestinian issue remains.

    I’m forced to agree with the Western view that the terrorism must end. If I only understood what the Muslims expect to happen as a result of the terrorism. Yes, it draws attention to the issues. But there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing.

    But I also think that Israel needs to back off. Sharon’s ultra-rightwing government is becoming dangerous. Their extreme actions work against them because it’s generating Western sympathy for their hated foes, the Palestinians.

    What a mess.

    [ 12-04-2002: Message edited by: Flamegrape ]

    #63224
    Anonymous
    Guest

    wow, we sure are opinionated. huh? I’d just like to say that I wish that other groups, with more power over this subject that us, could discuss things nicely like we have been doing. Honestly, when I saw this thread, I sighed and thought to myself “well, here goes the end of Sadgeezer” ,after all, I’ve seen other larger sites crumble over smaller issues than this. I think you have all handled this subject tastefully and solidly. But, may I suggest, we go over to the bar and have a refil? IMHO, people stay polite to one another more easily after a pint or two , (but not 3 ,let’s not push it)

    #63225
    Deliena
    Participant

    Why are americans so afraid of communism?

    quote

    Can you think of anything worse than fundamentalist Islamic communists?

    I can think of something worse. Militarised Fascists – oh wait, we’ve already seen what they are capable of.

    Few little known facts about the communist state of Cuba:

    The coup in which Castro seized power, was bloodless and supported by the majority of the people of Cuba.

    Fidel Castro is still supported by the vast majority of the people of Cuba, and were free elections be held there tomorrow would win by a HUGE majority.

    Everyone in Cuba can read and write NO OTHER FIRST WORLD COUNTRY CAN SAY THIS. 100% literacy ENSURES access to information, education and opportunity.

    Everyone in Cuba is feed – NO STATE IN THE US, NOWHERE IN THE UK OR EUROPE can say that.

    Communism isn’t a terrifying thing. And bear in mind that if you are thinking of Russia in the USSR days then you are thinking of Stalinist Communism, which is a perversion of Marxism.

    It is so much a perversion of Marxism in fact that Karl Marx once said ‘If that is Marxism, then I am not a Marxist’ of the Russian Revolution.

    I realise the primary conversation on this current topic is religon – but bigotry in the form of political expression is just as bad.

    Plus there are quite a few ‘communist’ Zionists. Visit a Kabutz, a truely utopian communist (with a small ‘c’) environment.

    Just an alternate point of view after all – what’s so scary about that? We’ve all said there’s nothing inherently scary about worshiping God in a different way. So why is social structuring any different?

    #63226
    Anonymous
    Guest

    i have to lock this thread because it is at 40 posts. i will put up a part 2 thread. i want to thank you all for keeping this discussion civilized.

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