where’s mantrid ? (bit like where’s wally?)

Forums Cult Sci Fi Series Lexx where’s mantrid ? (bit like where’s wally?)

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  • #36795
    bonnee
    Participant

    has anybody spotted when Mantrid is like to reappear in season 4? an imdb search on Deter Laser reveals diddly. just wondering.

    #51392
    DalekTek790
    Participant

    As tempting as it is to speculate on Mantrid’s reincarnation, he almost certainly will not be reappearing. Dieter Laser was apparently working on something else when filming was being done on the fourth season.

    #51393
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Yeah I had thought last year that “The Game” was about Mantrid and that he was in control of the carrots. But as most know now its not. And if he were to appear Im sure that would’ve been spoiled by now. We can hope tho

    #51394
    bonnee
    Participant

    according to imdb, he was appearing in something called ‘suck my dick’. Seriously. the fact that scheduling conflicts might have impacted on the writing/production, though, really sucks, and is another indication of salter street allowing the ‘soul’ of the show to be sold out to the shadow of its former self. watching what they did to fifi was really lame – he was so striking in 3 and incredibly wasted in 4. what was his excuse – appearing in a remake of def com 4?

    #51395
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by bonnee:
    the fact that scheduling conflicts might have impacted on the writing/production, though, really sucks, and is another indication of salter street allowing the ‘soul’ of the show to be sold out to the shadow of its former self. watching what they did to fifi was really lame – he was so striking in 3 and incredibly wasted in 4. what was his excuse – appearing in a remake of def com 4?


    Tell me, just how are scheduling problems evidence of Salter “selling out?” They couldn’t get Dieter Laser for this season. He had prior commitments. How is that Salter’s fault? What would you suggest that they have done instead? Kidnap him? You could argue that, after they used Dieter so effectively in Season 2, that they “sold out” by wasting him in just one episode in Season 3. Jeff Pustil’s appearance in “Xevivor” serves the same purpose that Dieter’s role in “K-Town” did: to show the crew that (besides Prince), people from their past are showing up with some regularity. Other than that, neither Jeff nor Dieter did much else in their respective roles. In “K-Town,” the former Mantrid just walks around a lot, makes a few faces, eats a bug, and fiddles with Kai’s rods. You could argue that Salter “sold out” in Season 3 by wasting Louise Wischermann in one throwaway episode appearance. You could argue that Salter’s been “selling out” since episode 2.3 because scheduling conflicts wouldn’t allow Eva Habermann to appear as Zev.

    I mean, I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but I think your point has long since been made clear to anyone with a pair of eyes: you don’t like Season 4. I get it. That’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion. But to drive your point deeper and deeper into the ground just becomes tiresome after a while. You’re not saying anything new, except that now you’ve thrown in vague accusations of “greed” and “selling out” that have no basis in *anything* other than the fact that you don’t like this season’s episodes.

    –Aleck

    #51396
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Bonnee, I have to agree with Aleck, although I do agree that S4 hasn’t been amazing, I think that all we’ve heard from you is how much you dislike it.
    At the end of the day, this forum is for fans who like the show and want to discuss it in a positive light, we are quite aware of it’s shortcomings, but realise that is the way Lexx has always been.
    If you want to bitch about it all the time, then may I suggest the Sci-Fi forum.
    Don’t take it the wrong way please, but it does get tiresome hearing how much you dislike S4.
    I think that S4 has had it’s low points, but then I always tend think that way until I watch the season over again, also I’m quite happy to let Lexx run the course before completely condemning it, as you seem happy to do.
    I don’t think anyone here is going to agree with you completely, everyone knows what to expect from Lexx, so your comments come as no surprise, Lexx is not perfect, the people who write it are not perfect, there are bound to be some bad mixed in with the good, that’s a fact of life in the Lexx universe.
    Squishy

    #51397
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by Squish-ums:
    …. At the end of the day, this forum is for fans who like the show and want to discuss it in a positive light…


    Hmmm… That’s not strictly true Squish-ums, The forums are for anyone who wants to talk about sci fi and I would actually encourage negative comment.

    The fact is, there are many people who feel positively about shows and it’s sometimes a good thing to hear the views of those who don’t. I think Bonnee is a fan of the series who has been disappointed by recent shows.

    The only thing I would say is that we have a special forum for sci fi angst and people who want to start a rant-topic, should post there.

    #51398
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by SadGeezer:

    Hmmm… That’s not strictly true Squish-ums, The forums are for anyone who wants to talk about sci fi and I would actually encourage negative comment.

    The fact is, there are many people who feel positively about shows and it’s sometimes a good thing to hear the views of those who don’t.


    I gotta say that I agree with Sad, Squish. I mean, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to express disappointment with LEXX. If you thought that they had a run of bad eps, you’d have every right to say that you thought the eps were lousy. What I was objecting to was just the *repetition* and the baseless claims of greed and selling out. If Bonnee had just said that the past few episodes had been (in her opinion) crap, explained why if need be, and left it at that, I think that’s fine. But throwing it out in every post she makes on this forum makes the point redundant (and the fact that she’s been verging on inflammatory about it doesn’t help much either). I’d think that either positive or negative criticism should be accepted on any forum, but when it ceases to be critical and starts verging on whining, it becomes an annoyance.

    –Aleck

    #51399
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Ok if you all don’t stop fighting right now I am going to turn this post around right now! Ok I see you are still fighting so I am turning this post around and back to where it started.

    Well I would have thought if Mantrid were to make an appearence at any point in the series he would have been revealed to be the head guy in charge of that Nuclear Particle Accelerator. Makes sense since he allready destroyed a universe so a planet is not much a of a challenge. But oh well such as things we will never see.

    -SM

    #51400
    FX
    Participant

    quote:


    Originally posted by Slopmaster:
    Ok if you all don’t stop fighting right now I am going to turn this post around right now! Ok I see you are still fighting so I am turning this post around and back to where it started.

    -SM


    yikes, a disciplinarian yeah, i miss mantrid too, and i have not been able to find out much about him either…and i liked him as a villain; he had all the twisted randomness of lexx at its best, and he was just plain fun to look at…”suck my dick”?! how curious times three, is he a porno actor?

    #51401
    bonnee
    Participant

    I have to agree with Squish Alec – if I can’t discuss the show in a ‘positive light’, then perhaps I should find another forum. Where I would disagree, however, is the equivocation been made between support and approval. Where I come from, a positive can often be a negative, and negatives can often be positive. It is called being ‘critical’, and it is an attempt to bounce ideas off each other. I was so hoping for people to tell me that I’m mistaken and remind me of its inherent worth, but everyone seems to want to complain about me daring to articulate and develop an unspoken (or barely whispered) truth. One of the most alarming things about fandom is the tendency to eschew critical thought in favor of our own or one another’s enthusiasms. It is almost as if mutual support involves wanting to surround ourselves with uniform and upbeat thoughts – and if that is not a version of the dystopia posited by the first Lexx movie, I don’t know what is. Consensus is not a criterion of truth, and dissent is one way of bringing out what we have already assented to. I have been trying to penetrate the public veneer of private disappointments in order to make better sense of the show’s recent failings – not to mention, rekindle an original love. As far as I am concerned, Lexx always used to provide a critique of conventional TV by virtue of its own existence. It encouraged a discriminating and devotional response. It helped put the cult back into popular culture. My problem has been watching the show start to resemble the kind of ‘stuff’ that was readilly parodied in Lafftrak, reducing its audience to a potentially mindless mass easily dis/pleased. However, I respect the desire that my ‘whinning’ has become ‘tiresome’, and shall not bore you anymore.

    I do, however, want to take Alec to task for his own equivocations, and then disappear for good. You do not ‘get it’ – not by a long shot. By selling out, I meant Lexx’s willingness to deliver a 20 plus episode season when clearly 6 or eight episodes would have sufficed. not to mention the fact that they were prepared to deliver these episodes ‘on time’ so as not to disappoint the network – as opposed to themselves or their audience. They allowed commercical considerations to impact on the integrity of their vision – and by integrity, I mean how well certain themes or issues are integrated into the narrative. You claim that someone could argue that the limited use of (say) Lyetta is an indication of them selling out. Someone could, but I wouldn’t. Her introduction in Garden was faithful to both the character and the narrative – she literally grew out of it. The episode was god awful, but her presence was justified. Fifi could have been ANY character encountered in season 4 – the role he was required to play only resonates within our recollection – it barely registered within the story itself. he was included because it was good for ratings – not good for the show (an important difference raised within the episode itself). one thing i want to particular chastise you for is making an assumption about me – an assumption Salter Street is guilty of making itself. You have assumed that I am a woman – is it because of the ‘whinning’ or the ‘handle’? I am a male supporter of the show who intends to publicly support it elsewhere. Like Salter Street, I think you have made assumptions about my interest in the show and the extent of my engagement with it. my feeling is that once they discovered that a large part of their audience was female and/or gay, they decided to play into what they think such people liked about it in the first place. By playing into many lame misconception about females and gay people, they diluted it to the point of emptying it of its own content That is insulting on so many levels. The biggest insult is where the writers apparently asked fans for ideas – surely, the appeal of Lexx has always been to second guess its audience, not pander to a given or vocal ‘demographic’. As for you tiring of my recycled posts and running certain points into the ground – how can you presume to make such a remark without the remotest hint of irony? That has been one of my main objections about season 4 – redundancy due to a certain recyclying and dimininishing re-turns.

    Now that I’ve got off my high horse, I think my timing has been appalling. And for that I apologise. Perhaps the tone of this would have been different if I also had been Lexx starved – we are watching all of the episodes in a row over 6 months (we are up to the ninth week) . it is proving to be an ordeal, and I was fearing the worst was to come if Tony’s reviews are any indication. you, however, are eagerly awaiting the arrival of the second half, and hopefully these episodes will make up for what has proved to be a very ‘tiresome’ and ‘groundless’ first half.

    Enjoy the show, and bi for now.

    [ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]

    #51402
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Judging from the criticisms from some of the open supporters of Lexx, it is becoming apparent that Lexx’s new season has been coming up short. I have seen the episodes up to ‘769’ and agree that the episodes have not met with my own expectations. I still watch but, unlike pass seasons, after watching an episode, I go ‘ho hum’ maybe next episode will be better. There’s a lot going on in the episodes but it seems scattered and disconnected. Worst of all, the story doesn’t seem tight. Is it bad editing? Maybe when the series is completed, things will fall into place. Even so, there still seems like there is a lot of filler going on. I tend to agree with Bonnee that Salter may have misjudged it’s audience, a bit too much silly gay referencing going on for my taste. The show may also be in danger of becoming a parody of itself. After watching half of the episodes, personally, I think they should have stayed away from the earth, it has blown the mystic of Lexx.

    I hate to criticize my favourite show, even before it’s season is done but I’m wondering if it’s just me who thinks this way?

    [ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: dgk ]

    #51403
    Anonymous
    Guest

    AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

    I at least feel better.

    #51404
    bonnee
    Participant

    thanks dgk – interesting how when one disgruntled viewer ‘comes out’, so does another.

    #51405
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by bonnee:
    I have to agree with Squish Alec – if I can’t discuss the show in a ‘positive light’, then perhaps I should find another forum. Where I would disagree, however, is the equivocation been made between support and approval. Where I come from, a positive can often be a negative, and negatives can often be positive. It is called being ‘critical’, and it is an attempt to bounce ideas off each others.


    I have no problem with that. If you’d read the last post I made, I stated that I’m all in favor of criticism. Criticism is a *good* thing.

    quote

    I was so hoping for people to tell me that I’m mistaken, but everyone seems to want to complain about me daring to speak an inarticulate truth.

    But, see, it’s the attitude above that obscures the value of the criticism. When you take the attitude that your opinions are an “inarticulate truth,” or *any* kind of truth, you preclude any argument. If you want to start a dialogue, it’s impossible when you take the stance that “Season 4 is abysmal, Salter has sold out, and what I’m saying is an absolute fact.” One can’t disagree with that statement or tell you that you’re mistaken because it’s made clear that there’s no room for argument. It’s as if you’re saying “I’m right, you’re being deluded if you don’t think so, and I dare you to disagree with me.”

    quote

    I have been trying to penetrate the public veneer of private disappointments in order to make better sense of the show’s recent failings.

    This, again, takes the stance that it’s a fact that the show is of lesser quality now, that everyone is actually disappointed by it, but is just putting on a happy “I Wuv LEXX!” face in order to hide it, and that you’re the only one brave enough to pierce through that exterior.

    quote

    I do, however, want to take Alec to task for his own equivocations, and then disappear for good.

    That’s spelled with a “k” on the end.

    quote

    You do not ‘get it’ – not by a long shot. By selling out, I meant Lexx’s willingness to deliver a 20 plus episode season when clearly 6 or eight episodes would have sufficed.

    Again, clearly your opinion, and not a fact. You could say that since only a handful of episodes in Season 2 dealt with the Mantrid storyline, that only that handful would have sufficed and the rest is just “filler.” Whether or not the (to use X-Files terminology) non-mythology episodes are filler or not is, of course, a matter of personal taste. Television shows are produced (the mini-series of 4 feature-length movies was an anomaly due to the nature of the network carrying the show at the time) in fairly established numbers. A short season runs 12-13 episodes. A normal season runs 20-24, with 24 being the norm. These are the rules of TV, and being veteran TV producers, the folks at Salter knew it.

    quote

    not to mention the fact that they were prepared to deliver these episodes ‘on time’ so as not to disappoint the network – as opposed to themselves or their audience. They allowed commercical considerations to impact on the integrity of their vision – and by integrity, I mean how well certain themes or issues are integrated into the narrative.

    One thing that you don’t seem to “get,” is that the television industry is more driven by commercial considerations than the recording, film or literary industries (to stay within the realm of entertainment). Financing needs to be secured, episodes have to be delivered on time, and to the satisfaction of not only the networks, but the sponsors and the public. If these considerations are not met, then the show is as good as canceled. To place it in the context of the other industries mentioned, it’s as if someone stopped a movie 20 minutes into its premiere showing and pulled it from circulation because not enough tickets were purchased. Truth be told, every season of LEXX was the length it was because of financial matters, and came out when it did because of finances. They didn’t have long waits between seasons because they wanted to get the scripts just right, it was because they needed to secure the financing and network backing needed to get the shows produced. If that’s selling out, then they’ve been doing that since day one. If you perceive a drop in quality, and you want to blame it on delivering the shows on time, you’re ignoring the fact that *all* TV shows have to be delivered “on time.” Previous seasons of LEXX included.

    quote

    You claim that someone could argue that the limited use of (say) Lyetta is an indication of them selling out. Someone could, but I wouldn’t. Her introduction in Garden was faithful to both the character and the narrative – she literally grew out of it.

    Seeing as how she served no purpose whatsoever in the narrative of the series arc, I think it’s safe to say that some could argue that her appearance was totally superfluous and designed only to satisfy those who wanted to see her come back in Season 3. Jeff Pustil’s role in “Xevivor,” as I’ve said, serves the same purpose as Dieter Laser’s in “K-Town”: to explicitly show the characters that figures from their past have re-appeared in an unfamiliar setting. Leykka’s appearance in “Garden” does *not* do this (as she’s grown as a duplicate, not “reincarnated”) and serves only to further the aspect of this episode’s plot that focuses on Stan’s desire to get laid (or, in this case, oral gratification). Both she and the episode in which she appears are superfluous, and can be seen as a cheap way to both pad out the season’s run and bring back an audience favorite.

    quote

    one thing i want to particular chastise you for is making an assumption about me – an assumption Salter Street is guilty of making itself. You have assumed that I am a woman – is it because of the ‘whinning’ or the ‘handle’?

    The handle, and nothing more. If I’d posted on this (or any other board) as “Suzee” or “Angelika” or something along those lines, I wouldn’t be surprised if some people assumed, based on the name I was using in this faceless medium, that I was female. Your belief that I’m making assumptions about why you like/don’t like the show is completely erroneous, and like your accusations of greed and “selling out,” has no basis in fact. I’ve never presumed to know why you, or anyone else, likes or hates this show. If you’d read my posts, you’d know that.

    quote

    As for you tiring of my recycled posts and running certain points in the ground – how can you presume to make such a remark without the remotest hint of irony? That has been one of my main objections about season 4 – redundancy due to a certain recyclying dimininishing re-turns.

    Unless one happens to live somewhere between your synapses, one cannot be expected to share the same POV of the series as yourself. Even if I thought that this season was as redundant as you seem to think it is, that would not preclude me from saying that *you* are being redundant without irony.

    quote

    hopefully these episodes will make up for what has proved to be a very ‘tiresome’ and ‘groundless’ first half.

    Again, your opinion. Nothing is proven.

    –Aleck

    #51406
    bonnee
    Participant

    Meno: And how will you inquire, Socrates, into that which you do not know? What will you put forth as the subject of inquiry? And if do you find what you want, how will you know that this is the thing which you did not know?
    Socrates: I know, Meno, what you mean; but see what a tiresome dispute you are introducing. You argue that a man cannot inquire either about that which he knows, or about that which he does not know; for if he knows, he has no need to inquire; and if not, he cannot; for he does not know the very subject about which he is to inquire

    I appreciate your response Aleck – it was very considered. I certainly acknowledge your open mindness – clearly you are tolerant of dissenting views. Although everything you say is certainly ‘true’ ,you seem want to distinguish between ‘fact’ and ‘value’ as if the distinction was itself factual (or rather, independent of values). I’m not really sure what you think a truth value is, but clearly you think a fact is something that can be dis/proven. However, proof is a normative term, which is just a round about way of saying that the status of facts emerge within the context of our evaluations. The one thing that concerns, me, however is what seems to be a thorogoing subjectivism -the notion that everyone is entitled to their knowledge claims, and such claims are no better or worse than others. except you want to say that nothing is proven by my (and others response) to the show. Given your own standards for evaluation, however, it proves just that: season 4 IS crap because i say so, and its NOT because someone else says its not. In other words, all this proves is our opinion (or rather, that we can all have one) about something particular – namely, certain ‘facts’ (considerations, evidence, etc). We may or may not agree, and that is the extent of it. That kind of logic is self refuting -or atleast, proven by the kind of responses that something can re/produce. The ‘fact’ is – people come together to want to dis/agree with each other, because we think such dis/agreements secure or determine the the status of the things we can (and want)to dis/agree on. In other words, the proof is to be found witin the dis/agreements. And all that proves is that we can have something to dis/agree on.

    [ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]

    #51407
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. — Hassan i Sabbah

    We’re getting bogged down in heavy philosophical territory, here, Bonnee. Which makes me wonder if it’s all worth it, when what we’re basically discussing is an approach to an evaluation of the worthiness of a TV show.

    What I’m basically saying is this: the “truth” of your opinion can only exist within yourself. What holds fast in your view may crumble in the reality tunnel of one with a different viewpoint. I don’t mean to imply that all opinions are equally valid, however: there are such things as well-informed and poorly-informed opinions. While this is the case, though, both ultimately say little about the object, and reveal more about the subject. What I consider closest to “fact” are those things that are generally quantitative, and not qualitative (though even the quantitative is not as hard and fast as one would think): “This is a clock” over “this clock is ugly.” “This season contains 24 episodes” over “most of these episodes are filler.” The quantitative, we can essentially all agree upon. Michael McManus essays the role of Kai. Brian Downey is in the role of Stan. Etc. The rest (“I feel that Prince is a better villain than His Divine Shadow,” for example) is opinion and, while may be said to be true *inside* one’s own reality tunnel, must be approached as neither true nor false (and, ultimately, more malleable than a quantitative statement) when entering this view into the public arena. This is where debate and argument come in. The purpose of argument is to exchange views, to present counterpoints to those views, and ultimately, to expand or perhaps alter those views — not neccessarily to a view identical to one’s own, but perhaps to a view that can acknowledge the validitiy or invalidity of the opposing viewpoint, depending on how well said viewpoint is supported. *This* is what I was trying to point out in addressing your stance: You were stating the qualitative as quantitative. “Season 4 sucks” may be true in your own mindset, but if your intention was to get people to remind you of LEXX’s inherent worth, you could possibly do no worse than present your subjective view as a hard objective fact. If, perhaps, you’d said something along the lines of “I’m extremely disappointed in the episodes of LEXX I’ve seen so far, and here’s why…what do you think of it?” — then, maybe, a dialogue could have been better engaged. If I were to, say, go onto a music discussion board and say “DEVO are the greatest band to *ever* walk the face of this puny planet, and kick the Beatles’ collective ass,” I’m sure I’d get my share of people replying “What planet are you writing from, anyway, you shmuck?” If, however, I said “DEVO are my favorite band of all time,” people would more likely engage in a conversation about why I’d think so, who their favorite bands were, etc.

    As Dennis Miller says, though, “That’s just my opinion…I could be wrong.”

    –Aleck

    #51408
    Anonymous
    Guest

    ‘Positive’ in hindsight, was probably the wrong word to use, but I acknowledge that being critical of Lexx can swing both ways.
    From where I stand we have all said bad and good things about Lexx, but for the most part we remained optimistic in what the future episodes will turn out like.
    I don’t personally agree with some people’s view that the whole season is a wash-out, but this doesn’t mean that I don’t believe that it’s not open to negative criticism.
    Being a fan of Lexx gives you a kind of inside knowledge, whereas those who are new to it will believe that after one bad ep the rest would be the same, we know that we won’t get the best of episodes throughout an entire season, but it’s worth watching, because there are some real gems along the way.
    I do feel that Bonnee has made some legitimate points which I share, however, there is such a thing as overkill, and he/she being a true Lexx fan should realise this is par for the course.
    Though, as this is the last season, I’m would prefer not to get bogged down in the pros and cons, and just enjoy it.
    I would say to Bonnee, finish the meal and then give your compliments or complaints to the chef!!!
    Squishy

    #51409
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Fair enough Aleck – I don’t want to argue with someone who is willing and able to put me in my place: by simultaneously de/throning me. I suppose I should let you know that the reason I was prepared to get bogged down in heavy philosophical issues because that is my territory .I’m currently doing a phd in philosophy, and my subject is (yes) the ontology of meaning and truth. my focus is upon the intentionlity of thought, which specifies/determines the relationship between subject and object. For the record, though, I remain uncomfortable with your distinction between the two q’s – the so called distinction is recognized to be one of degree rather than kind in philosophy. trying to demarcate between them raises all sorts of problems, and presupposes the thing/s at issue (the relation between meaning and truth). the best way to illustrate the problem with your quote is via nietzche, who urged that ‘there are no facts, only interrpretations. Is that a fact or an interpretation? If it an interpretation, then are at least one kind of fact – interpretations. and if it is (just) an interpretation, one kind of ‘fact’ are interpretations? Or if you like: if nothing is true, then something is already true (the first statement). The statement doesn’t even permit itself, and precludes the condition of its own possibility. The problem with the music examples you cite is that they only leave room for self certifying or self serving ‘truths’. nothing is to be gained or lost by (not) finding kinds of truth to serve/cerify us. The meaningful issue IS qualitative, and remains a case of truth or dare .

    #51410
    Anonymous
    Guest

    you’re right of course Squish. but i could be wrong.

    #51411
    Flamegrape
    Participant

    I’ve been continually perplexed by the complaints a number of people have been posting about Lexx!

    IMHO, the quality of Lexx has remained constant from the very beginning to the present. I’m not sure what to say in support of this POV.

    I introduced my friends to Lexx in the last year. Myself, I have been faithfully watching the show since the end of season 2. To get to the point, me and my friends have reviewed all of the season 1 movies sequentially on DVD, all of the season 2 episodes sequentially on DVD, all of the season 3 episodes in my tape collection (sans commercials!), and we have been enjoying the season 4 episodes. We’ve seen all the episodes we can.

    When I tell them about criticism posted here at SadBoard, they’re all mystified. My discussion with my friends usually segues to the topic of obsessive fans who expect too much from their favorite TV shows. It’s looking a gift horse in the mouth, etc., etc.

    I’m just looking forward to seeing more Xev. You just can’t go wrong with that lovely, luscious, lizard lady!

    [ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: Flamegrape ]

    #51412
    Anonymous
    Guest

    As you say, bonnee, fair enough. You raise good and interesting points, and I’ll be the first to admit that I’m grossly oversimplifying things when it comes to the 2 q’s. I was trying to say that what most people accept as “fact” is that which is perceived to be more quantitative: if you can count it and put it in a box, it’s a fact. If you can’t, it’s in that ethereal qualitative realm. Both are malleable in some ways by the perception of the individual (such as: do our concepts of 1000 marbles jibe? do we even share the same concepts of the number “1000” and the object “marble”?), but for the most part, the concept of 1000 marbles can be agreed upon by more people than “who’s the best actor of all time?” That being said, the concept of 1000 marbles is, since it’s been agreed upon and is “known” (to refer to the Meno/Socrates dialogue) is not as important. As you say, the meaningful issue is qualitative. It’s *that* which we seek to discuss. But to present what is primarily an inner truth (“Season 4 blows monkey chunks” being a part of one’s own reality tunnel, which may or may not be part of the consensus reality tunnel — forgive me, I just wanted to use the phrase “blows monkey chunks”) as an outer truth (something that is part of the consensus reality tunnel — like “LEXX is a television program starring Brian Downey, Xenia Seeburg, Michael McManus, among others”) — again, grossly oversimplifying and muddying the matter, but I think you see what I’m getting at — precludes any attempt at dialogue or discussion among others who may not see as “truth” what you see.

    And, actually, I just remembered the Hassan i Sabbah quote from my Robert Anton Wilson/Tim Leary days, and thought it was appropo.

    –Aleck

    #51413
    bonnee
    Participant

    your a real smart Aleck, you know that? Seriously,

    That being said, the concept of 1000 marbles is, since it’s been agreed upon and is “known” (to refer to the Meno/Socrates dialogue) is not as important.

    Hmmm – you’ve just circumvented the important problem we’ve been talking about -namely, the problem of the criterion and its relation to the problem of demarcation . Meno’s question has haunted philosophy ever since it was asked, and Socates certainly found it difficult to provide a foundation of his own relationship to anything. Like Lexx, he raised the notion of futurepast (knowldege as re-collection) in order to ‘know’ certain things. The relation between inner and outer is what is fundamentally at issue (the relation between concept and object, content and referent, etc). Philosophers call this the intentional relation, and the fact that we can have a dis/agreement is what throws our relation into question. (intentionality is what individual minds are collectively ‘of’ our ‘about’). No one talks about the ‘subject’ or the ‘object’ anymore – the issue is intersubjectivity – of how something can be built up and held in being (say the concept of marbles) or broken down and thrown into question (like the reputation of Lexx). In other words, how something can come to be of or about ‘marbles’ or ‘lexx’. At the end of the day, you are talking about (different)qualities of the show, and I want to explicate the differences and relation between them. I respect and understand your desire to want to distinguish between primary and secondary qualities, but I cannot accept the fact that my approach precludes the possibility of intelligent discussion. Look what’s going on between us – it gave rise to the need to raise philosophical questions. We both refer to an object (lexx) in order to ‘qualify’ our ‘quantity’ (its properties). and that is because there is something ‘about’ Lexx itself that permits such ‘dis/agreement’. I have to confess, however, to being troubled by someone who want to distinguish between truths, and then attempt to impose a Truth upon my own ‘truth’ (its just your opinion, nothing is proven, truth is relative, facts and values differ, etc). Your evalution/response of my remarks is an argument in favor of them, revealing a desire to get something really truthful across to me ‘about’ them. Within pragmatics, this is called a ‘performative contradiction’ and is invariably impractical (self refuting, defeating, etc). You argue against yourself when arguing with me. But Aleck, can’t we just agree to dis/agree with each other so we can just dis/agree with each other?

    [ 28-01-2002: Message edited by: bonnee ]

    #51414
    bonnee
    Participant

    When I tell them about criticism posted here at SadBoard, they’re all mystified’.

    Really Flame? In the spirit of an open ended and open minded conversation, I’d just like to say – I’m left speechless.

    #51415
    Anonymous
    Guest

    dgk, you obviously care enough about Lexx to create your own ‘tribute’ elsewhere. Its a fine page by the way, and I think we agree, usually a damn fine show. I’m also very confused actually – about two things. Firstly, whilst the show is often characterised by amazing highs and lows, I feel I’ve been watching it flatline lately. Lexx has always divided fans of course – usually the one and same fan! It is often possible to watch the show, and find yourself arguing with yourself. We can find ourselves questioning why we put ourselves through ‘that’, but the following week we can find ourselves anxious for the next serving and delighted by the result. Secondly, The thing that is interesting about the most recent season, however, is that our ‘private’ argument has spilled out into the ‘public’ realm (bearing in mind I am wary of such a distinction to begin with). We are not the first to bemoan the apparent lack of ‘quality’ during the current season. This has been ‘taken’ as a ‘given’ elsewhere (I’ve just noticed that there is a thread here somewhere way back of someone reporting about a consensus emerging in alt.tv groups concerning the current season – and the person reporting this ‘fact’ was quite surprised, and encourages responses to ‘it’). My response coincides with your own regarding ‘editing’ . Lack of quality control by virtue of too many episodes or an uncertainty in tone. I also suspect that the producers have responded to a critisism of season 3 – where it is commonly held to be ‘too serious’ . So, in response to this perceived quality and/or lack of (humour/playfullness), they went the other way for the first half of season 4. And now many are complaining about it not taking itself (and/or the audience) too seriously anymore! Note, however (Aleck), that any response to its perceived qualities – including Salter Street’s response to temper it with a perceived imbalance – has its basis in the thing being responded to: Lexx. We are talking about the show – or if you prefer, a given response taken from it. And the scales have tipped the other way in many quarters. You and I both know that we were going to continue to watch Lexx, and shall ignore the call to not watch it, despite ongoing reservations. This forum, however, appears to more accepting than most – the only thing it doesn’t seem to want to accept is our critisism of OUR show. Its almost as if its their’s alone. but to quote you on your site

    Feedback is like protoblood, it keeps me going!

    #51416
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Lexx is still my favourite by far for tv scifi. Lexx spoiled me against the other scifi shows that come across as dry and
    humourless. If given a choice, watch Lexx or some other show, I still pick Lexx. This season, some of the stories have come
    across a bit flat. I still have faith the season will get better. And some episodes turn out to be better after viewing them a second time. It takes a lot for me to openly criticize Lexx. Fans have to tow the line to some extent. And a discussion about this
    season’s failings is moot anyway. The episodes are “in the can” as they say, and the series is finished after this season. And the talk of a spin off makes me cringe. It’s just not lexxy! I think I’ll just sit back and try to enjoy the last episodes and forget about criticizing. Just imagine if you were someone who never saw an episode of Lexx before and you catch your first episode, say 4.11. Imagine how you would react. Would you say “What the feck was that?!” Or would you say, “That was weird! Did they say that guy was dead? Why are they flying around in a moth? What was the name of that show? I think I check it out again
    next time it comes on.” Oh to be a newbie again!

    Thanks for visiting my Lexx page bonnee. Glad you liked it, things must have worked on it as they were supposed to. It’s long
    due for an update. Maybe Prime Ridge will inspire an update.

    quote:


    Originally posted by :
    dgk, you obviously care enough about Lexx to create your own ‘tribute’ elsewhere. Its a fine page by the way, and I think we agree, usually a damn fine show. I’m also very confused actually – about two things. Firstly, whilst the show is often characterised by amazing highs and lows, I feel I’ve been watching it flatline lately. Lexx has always divided fans of course – usually the one and same fan! It is often possible to watch the show, and find yourself arguing with yourself. We can find ourselves questioning why we put ourselves through ‘that’, but the following week we can find ourselves anxious for the next serving and delighted by the result. Secondly, The thing that is interesting about the most recent season, however, is that our ‘private’ argument has spilled out into the ‘public’ realm (bearing in mind I am wary of such a distinction to begin with). We are not the first to bemoan the apparent lack of ‘quality’ during the current season. This has been ‘taken’ as a ‘given’ elsewhere (I’ve just noticed that there is a thread here somewhere way back of someone reporting about a consensus emerging in alt.tv groups concerning the current season – and the person reporting this ‘fact’ was quite surprised, and encourages responses to ‘it’). My response coincides with your own regarding ‘editing’ . Lack of quality control by virtue of too many episodes or an uncertainty in tone. I also suspect that the producers have responded to a critisism of season 3 – where it is commonly held to be ‘too serious’ . So, in response to this perceived quality and/or lack of (humour/playfullness), they went the other way for the first half of season 4. And now many are complaining about it not taking itself (and/or the audience) too seriously anymore! Note, however (Aleck), that any response to its perceived qualities – including Salter Street’s response to temper it with a perceived imbalance – has its basis in the thing being responded to: Lexx. We are talking about the show – or if you prefer, a given response taken from it. And the scales have tipped the other way in many quarters. You and I both know that we were going to continue to watch Lexx, and shall ignore the call to not watch it, despite ongoing reservations. This forum, however, appears to more accepting than most – the only thing it doesn’t seem to want to accept is our critisism of OUR show. Its almost as if its their’s alone. but to quote you on your site

    Feedback is like protoblood, it keeps me going!


    #51417
    Anonymous
    Guest

    quote:


    Originally posted by dgk:

    The episodes are “in the can” as they say, and the series is finished after this season. And the talk of a spin off makes me cringe. It’s just not lexxy! I think I’ll just sit back and try to enjoy the last episodes and forget about criticizing.


    Nicely said; why spoil the last fourteen weeks of pleasure in something that we know can’t be replaced? Of course we can comment on the episodes and pick favorites and quibble about plot points, but why watch with the assumption that the season is no good?

    Spin offs make me cringe too. I’d rather they just came up with a new concept entirely.

    elmey

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